Sirjon Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 I was a believer in the theory that 'gravity' does not exist as a natural force but rather due to the Earth expanding from it's center in a three dimensional way. I just learned recently the debate between the a 'Flat Earth' advocates contending that the Earth is not round. Believers in Flat Earth keeps on claiming that everywhere you look, even the horizon is perfectly horizontal and even showing the proof that Kansas is perfectly flat. It also makes no sense to me regarding the basics of Euclidean Geometry that no two straight lines can be vertically parallel from each lines if they were drawn from the center of a circle. However, to make a flat ground on the surface of the Earth, you need to make the columns or pillars to be perpendicular to the Earth's center of gravity. Many says that the Earth is so huge that we simply cannot notice the curving of the surface. I realized then that this is one proof that indeed, each points on the surface of the Earth ( as I agree the Earth is round'), where one is standing is accelerating from the ground at the rate of 32 ft per second square upward and we feel it as a pull of gravity. Now the reason that everything that we see are horizontally flat on Earth is because we have to consider the time it takes the object to reach our eyes and not merely a visual illusion. Meaning, as we standing and staring, example an object from the distance, the surface or ground where the object is standing already moved upward and instead it looks slanted away from us as the fundamental geometry will tell us, it will indeed, looks perfectly standing 90 degrees from the ground. Same thing, if we try to go near that object, every points on the surface where we move are also moving upward that we feel that we are walking in a flat surface. I just share this as this could be an alternative idea to reconcile the differences between the mainstream science and the flat Earth believers. one more thing, I believe that not only the spaces in between the galaxies are expanding, everything in the universe are also three dimensionally expanding There could another scientific analysis or some kind of geometrical or mathematical system that we can develop to explain this observation. Thank you for the this opportunity to share my thoughts.
beecee Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Sirjon said: I just share this as this could be an alternative idea to reconcile the differences between the mainstream science and the flat Earth believers. So why did you post this nonsense in the Astronomy sciences section instead of the obvious speculation section?
Strange Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 ! Moderator Note Moved to Speculations. Please note that you need to provide evidence to support your claims. (As you are claiming the Earth is flat, that will not be possible, so I don't expect this thread to stay open long.) 1
Sirjon Posted February 21, 2019 Author Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, beecee said: So why did you post this nonsense in the Astronomy sciences section instead of the obvious speculation section? I 3 minutes ago, Strange said: ! Moderator Note Moved to Speculations. Please note that you need to provide evidence to support your claims. (As you are claiming the Earth is flat, that will not be possible, so I don't expect this thread to stay open long.) Okay. Sorry for that... Thank you for moving it to the proper Section. Noted. Please read it carefully. I am not an advocate of Flat Earth. In fact I believe that the Earth is round. What I am pointing out is that as we move along any surface of the Earth, it looks like flat but it is, really a round thing, The only difference is, we're not noticing it, as well, that as I 'speculated' it (right word this time!), that every points we are standing in a spherical planet like the Earth is moving upward from its center, showing that the Earth, along with all the things on it are expanding in 3D (getting larger) in every seconds of a time. Edited February 21, 2019 by Sirjon wrong spelling
Mordred Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 Flat Earthers should try dropping two test weights from a sufficient height and distance from each other to measure how those dropped objects approach each other when they fall. If the Earth was indeed flat those same objects would remain parallel. Google gravitational tidal forces there is no point of reconciling with flat Earthers, they are simply plain wrong you are better off ignoring them. Here is another related question why is the Earth and other planets round instead of random shapes ? the answer is it is the most conserved configuration of a multi particle object is round. Once a body gains sufficient mass the gravitational force will cause it to become round.
Sirjon Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 I have a question - with all the technology that we have nowadays with very sensitive measuring equipment that can measure even a slight change in microscopic length (in micron), was there any kind of experiment done to prove that we can detect any shift in angle between two poles standing, let’s say a kilometer away from each other, with the condition that the line in between them is a perfect straight line, to prove to the Flat Earth believers that indeed, the Earth is round? I done research in the Internet with the Q & A websites regarding the question - why the surface of the Earth seems flat and all the answer is - the Earth is so huge that we cannot notice it. Why disprove these people by such kind of experiment? Just to make it clear to you – I do believe that this planet we call Earth is indeed round, spinning on its axis, revolving around the Sun and our Galaxy is also moving in Space in a tremendous speed. Pardon me, please keep out that ‘impression’ that I go with the Flat Earth believers .
Phi for All Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 20 hours ago, Sirjon said: I just share this as this could be an alternative idea to reconcile the differences between the mainstream science and the flat Earth believers. I think this phrase has caused your problems in this thread, and made others think you support a flat Earth. There is no reconciliation between scientific observations of natural phenomena and ideas that run contrary to those observations. Flat-Earthers make claims that aren't supported by the evidence, so there is no way to reach a middle ground with them by reconciling their ideas with science. 20 hours ago, Sirjon said: one more thing, I believe that not only the spaces in between the galaxies are expanding, everything in the universe are also three dimensionally expanding Do you have any evidence for this claim?
Strange Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Sirjon said: I have a question - with all the technology that we have nowadays with very sensitive measuring equipment that can measure even a slight change in microscopic length (in micron), was there any kind of experiment done to prove that we can detect any shift in angle between two poles standing, let’s say a kilometer away from each other, with the condition that the line in between them is a perfect straight line, to prove to the Flat Earth believers that indeed, the Earth is round? This was done a few thousand years ago to calculate the circumference of the Earth: https://www.famousscientists.org/eratosthenes/ Edit: just realised I shouldn't really take part in the thread as I acted as moderator. I will keep out now! Edited February 22, 2019 by Strange
Sirjon Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Phi for All said: I think this phrase has caused your problems in this thread, and made others think you support a flat Earth. There is no reconciliation between scientific observations of natural phenomena and ideas that run contrary to those observations. Flat-Earthers make claims that aren't supported by the evidence, so there is no way to reach a middle ground with them by reconciling their ideas with science. Do you have any evidence for this claim? Pardon me, but this is the very reason this topic was moved to this section - "Speculations"
Strange Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sirjon said: Pardon me, but this is the very reason this topic was moved to this section - "Speculations" ! Moderator Note The rules for this section of the forum require you to provide evidence. "Speculations" is not an excuse to just make things up.
Sirjon Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, Strange said: This was done a few thousand years ago to calculate the circumference of the Earth: https://www.famousscientists.org/eratosthenes/ Edit: just realised I shouldn't really take part in the thread as I acted as moderator. I will keep out now! True. I believe also Science was able to determine the size of an atom, or the distance an atom can travel? The fact that we can now measure things in 'nanometers' (check if this will be allowed: https://electroiq.com/2019/02/graphene-sandwich-key-to-new-electronics). So why not experiment in much realistic environment? 19 minutes ago, Strange said: ! Moderator Note The rules for this section of the forum require you to provide evidence. "Speculations" is not an excuse to just make things up. We know it pretty well that Edwin Hubble was right, the Universe is expanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe General relativity was introduced by Einstein in 1915 at the time he thought that the universe was static. Maybe, he realized that the idea of the expanding bodies would not match that kind of a static universe, so he assumed that space-time to be curved. Only in 1924 that Edwin Hubble gave that revelation that the Universe is expanding. But recent studies, suggest that the Universe is not only expanding but racing out at an ever-faster pace. If by chance, that if the spaces in between the Galaxies are expanding, could it be that everything in the Universe are also expanding, in three dimensional fashion? We don't notice it because of the same reasoning that the Earth is not flat but round but we're not noticing it because the Earth is so huge - In Cosmological measurement, we're also talking about spaces in huge distances. 53 minutes ago, Phi for All said: I think this phrase has caused your problems in this thread, and made others think you support a flat Earth. There is no reconciliation between scientific observations of natural phenomena and ideas that run contrary to those observations. Flat-Earthers make claims that aren't supported by the evidence, so there is no way to reach a middle ground with them by reconciling their ideas with science. What I was suggesting is that we can explain to Flat Earth believers that the earth looks flat if we're stepping on the ground but in reality, is 'round', if by chance, the Earth is expanding or getting larger every seconds of a time. The word 'reconcile' here is regarding the proper way of reasoning and not merely keep on saying, that the 'Earth is so huge we 're not noticing it.'
Phi for All Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Sirjon said: What I was suggesting is that we can explain to Flat Earth believers that the earth looks flat if we're stepping on the ground but in reality, is 'round', if by chance, the Earth is expanding or getting larger every seconds of a time. The word 'reconcile' here is regarding the proper way of reasoning and not merely keep on saying, that the 'Earth is so huge we 're not noticing it.' While I can appreciate the attempt to teach, you have to remember that these folks deny the obvious curvature of the horizon seen from commercial airline flights. There are many supported scientific ways to show the Earth is not flat, so your concerns that these folks are only being told it's a perspective issue because Earth is so huge aren't compelling.
swansont Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 On 2/21/2019 at 12:29 PM, Sirjon said: I was a believer in the theory that 'gravity' does not exist as a natural force but rather due to the Earth expanding from it's center in a three dimensional way. What expansion rate is necessary to give us 1g of acceleration at the earth's surface? Why haven't we run into the moon yet? Or have the whole solar system colliding with each other? How does this gravity manifest itself for things not touching the surface of the earth, which are therefore decoupled from the expansion?
beecee Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Sirjon said: If by chance, that if the spaces in between the Galaxies are expanding, could it be that everything in the Universe are also expanding, in three dimensional fashion? We don't notice it because of the same reasoning that the Earth is not flat but round but we're not noticing it because the Earth is so huge - In Cosmological measurement, we're also talking about spaces in huge distances. Yet the opposite is true...we notice and have evidence the universe is expanding over large scales, and have evidence to show that over smaller scales such as our local group of galaxies, that the gravity from the higher energy/density over those regions, see those galaxies gravitationally bound//eg: Milky Way, LMC, SMC, M31[Andromeda] in other words no expansion over those scales.
Sirjon Posted February 25, 2019 Author Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) I got this blog (I hope this link will be allowed , https://flatearthinsanity.blogspot.com/2016/11/catalog-of-flat-earth-claims-refutations.html ) Claim #5... let me quote " So the buildings DO tilt away in all directions - but it's too slight to be measure by merely looking at it" As I mentioned earlier, with the modern technology that we have now that can even measure length in nanometer, why not do an accurate measurement using the latest equipment to prove it one way or another. If my theory is correct, there will be no difference in angles (both the buildings and even the the buildings' columns would be exactly parallel to each other, 90 degrees perpendicular to the ground), NOT because the earth is flat but due to reason that the earth is expanding from the center as we're being push upward that we feel it like a pull of gravity. Edited February 25, 2019 by Sirjon put low case letter e for earth; pardon there were two 'Earth' words as I edited the second Earth into earth
swansont Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Sirjon said: If my theory is correct, there will be no difference in angles (both the buildings and even the the buildings' columns would be exactly parallel to each other, 90 degrees perpendicular to the ground), Why would buildings be parallel and perpendicular to the ground on a sphere, simply because that sphere was expanding? Quote NOT because the earth is flat but due to reason that the earth is expanding from the center as we're being push upward that we feel it like a pull of gravity. What expansion rate is necessary to give us 1g of acceleration at the earth's surface? I mean, it's 9.8 m/s^2, right? If we had a mountain and a valley, where g was 9.81 m/s^2 at the bottom and 9.80 m/s^2 at the top, the valley must be expanding faster, until it catches up with the top. Why do we still have mountains? Why does the moon orbit the earth?
Bufofrog Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Sirjon said: If my theory is correct, there will be no difference in angles (both the buildings and even the the buildings' columns would be exactly parallel to each other, 90 degrees perpendicular to the ground), NOT because the earth is flat but due to reason that the earth is expanding from the center as we're being push upward that we feel it like a pull of gravity. The idea that the acceleration that we feel from gravity is due to the earth expanding is pretty crazy in my opinion. I suppose the reason we do not run into the moon is because while the moon is also expanding the space between the moon and the earth is expanding at the exact rate that appears to keep our distance constant, like I said pretty crazy. What is expanding? the distance between atoms? The distance between the nucleus and electrons in an atom? Are there just more atoms forming? Are the fundamental particles themselves expanding? If the expanding earth is what gravity really is, why do satellites stay in orbit, an expanding earth will not affect something in orbit, right?
Sirjon Posted February 26, 2019 Author Posted February 26, 2019 14 hours ago, Bufofrog said: The idea that the acceleration that we feel from gravity is due to the earth expanding is pretty crazy in my opinion. I suppose the reason we do not run into the moon is because while the moon is also expanding the space between the moon and the earth is expanding at the exact rate that appears to keep our distance constant, like I said pretty crazy. What is expanding? the distance between atoms? The distance between the nucleus and electrons in an atom? Are there just more atoms forming? Are the fundamental particles themselves expanding? If the expanding earth is what gravity really is, why do satellites stay in orbit, an expanding earth will not affect something in orbit, right? Well, I believe the whole universe is filled up with ultimately, much smaller particles than leptons and quarks that scattered in the whole universe and occupy even the outer space.. No matter how Science try to know the elementary particles, at the end we will feel frustrated as, if my theory is correct, these elementary particles already formed into much larger particles and so on and so, every seconds, that we have to dig much deeper to come up with knowing these elementary particles. That's the reason there's seems to be no end to the sequence of boxes within boxes. No such thing as 'empty' space - even the outer space is filled with these elementary particles. Although, I also accept the reality of such discrepancies in such argument - how come massive objects such as metals are heavier than cotton, there could be underlying 'geometry' or mathematical analysis that may someday, explain it. Well, to be honest regarding this, I have limited skill regarding the math that will prove my claim - the reason why i am sharing this to you, mainly, for others, who are more expert in this field (scientists and mathematicians), who might consider to temporarily forget 'all what we learned from mainstream science' and start from this initial statement - gravity is a push from the ground at 9.8 meters per second square. I think William Clifford is correct when he suggested that gravity is a manifestation of an underlying geometry. I am not in a position to argue or give mathematical analysis that will prove my claim, which I am lacking - But what will happen, as to my suggestion, by performing an 'accurate' experiment based on modern equipment and technology that we have to prove that the Earth is round, the result shows the other way around? I think you're not getting my point - but if you insist, that is what the math is telling you, then all we have are all speculations. Maybe, performing such experiment will put the Flat Earthers to 'silence'. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kingdon_Clifford)
Dagl1 Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 @Sirjon Can you explain me why you "believe" this. I never understood these "believes" that are not based on real arguments. I don't mean to be rude but to me it sounds like: "I believe that there are magical space ants underlying all particles, and the degree of their intelligence determines the mass of the particles they make up. Larger mass particles consist of smarter ants. We cannot ever see these ants right now because we don't dig deep enough into the particles. Of course there are some questions to be answered, for instance, why are the numbers of ants always the same and is only their intelligence important for the mass of the particle. Well I don't know but maybe there is some underlying geometry, it doesn't really make sense right now, but this is what I belief." Now of course this is highly exaggerated but I just don't get why, as a non-expert with no real evidence and no mathematics you just "believe" your theory. Why don't you believe the hypothesis that we currently have which are at least somewhat underlined with evidence. What makes you think "nah there are smaller particles"? Again, I don't mean to ridicule you or your argument; my mathematical/physicist skills are not good enough to make any assertions about how reality works, I am just surprised that you believe something, without seemingly much evidence. -Dagl 2
swansont Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 9 hours ago, Sirjon said: if my theory is correct Your theory is not correct, and if you would address the very obvious objections to it, it would become apparent. Possibly even to you. Quote temporarily forget 'all what we learned from mainstream science' and start from this initial statement - gravity is a push from the ground at 9.8 meters per second square. I think William Clifford is correct when he suggested that gravity is a manifestation of an underlying geometry. If gravity is pushing owing to expansion, then one can calculate how far we have moved and how fast we are moving. You have thus far refused to address this obvious issue with your fairy tale. Our earth has a well-known size, incompatible with expansion. We do not observe the relativistic effects we would expect under such a scenario. The planets do not act as if gravity were a result of expansion. Failure to respond to objections is not a winning strategy. Quote I am not in a position to argue or give mathematical analysis that will prove my claim, which I am lacking - ! Moderator Note Then there is nothing to discuss. The only scenario under which you can bring this up again is if you include a mathematical analysis that addresses the objections raised in this thread. Absent that, keep this nonsense away off of this site. It's not science. It's not even a good bedtime story. 1
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