Why are so many people entertained by torture?

[tim.tdj]

Hi Everyone

I am beginning to lose count of the times that I have had to stop watching a film or TV series I was enjoying because a dreadful scene of torture came up. Last night it happened while I was watching the second episode of The Umbrella Academy on Netflix. I will not be watching any more of it.

Is this really what most people want?

The only emotional response I have towards torture is deep horror and the feeling that my blood has become very cold in a very unpleasant way. I am not in any way whatsoever entertained by it. I suspect that there are some people who think I have something wrong with me because of this. Well I don't. I actually believe that anyone who is not exactly like me in this regard has something deeply wrong with them.

I would be very grateful for any thoughts about what I have said in this posting.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards

Tim

[Sensei]

Movie makers, game makers, music makers, theater spectacle makers, book writers etc. etc. want to create emotion in viewers, listeners, readers or players. Art is evolving with time. What was common in early cinema ages (pantomime, musicals, romances) are no longer interesting and enjoyable for majority of western population. Viewers would say these e.g. movies are naive, stupid, barely watchable etc.

It's easy to make horror movie with cruelty which will cause viewers emotional reactions.. but it's very hard to make comedy which will cause the same level of emotional reactions. Good comedy requires extraordinary intelligence from either movie maker and movie viewer.

[Prometheus]

1 hour ago, tim.tdj said:

The only emotional response I have towards torture is deep horror and the feeling that my blood has become very cold in a very unpleasant way.

I think that's the emotion they are going for.

Being entertained is a nebulous, but it seems clear that people don't simply want to experience the one emotion. We watch horror to be scared, but from a safe distance. I doubt nearly as many people would watch torture if they thought it was real.

[iNow]

51 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

We watch horror to be scared, but from a safe distance

This is a good suggestion, and I suspect contributes a lot to the phenomenon.

Elaborated... It allows us to practice in a safe environment how we might respond were it to happen for real. It's a bit like mentally rehearsing a performance... pretending in your mind what it will feel like to sing in front of a large auditorium or catch a football in a stadium filled with thousands of people. The practice in our mind allows us to do better in reality, and perhaps these types of horrors allow similar... It's a dangerous world, and controlled exposures like this allow us to experience it without the risk of physical harm.

Also, we just like the dopamine and adrenaline rush. Like riding a roller coaster or going skydiving or eating spicy food, we feel more alive when those chemicals are flowing through our systems. The reward mechanism for the rush is pretty high, and films/scenes like this can generate similar surges of neurochemicals.

[Phi for All]

Compelling stories NEED conflict to drive them. Whether the hero needs to cross the grueling desert, or climb the cliff face, or survive the inhuman torture of his captors, these things provide foils for what the hero needs to accomplish. 

You're supposed to feel deep revulsion for the things that thwart heroic endeavors. Torture in particular is usually used to show how determined, or skilled, or loyal, or clever, or resourceful the hero is. It's a signal to the reader/viewer that some watershed moment is about to happen. 

If the writer does their job right, you'll feel more connected and admire the hero more after they've endured a hardship. Whatever they go on to accomplish will be more relevant/meaningful/poignant because of the trials they've experienced.

2 hours ago, tim.tdj said:

I actually believe that anyone who is not exactly like me in this regard has something deeply wrong with them.

Do you think others are enjoying the torture? That they like what's being done? I think you're mistaken. 

And I'm sorry, but I think it's deeply wrong to feel this way about people who aren't exactly like you.

[tim.tdj]

13 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

2 hours ago, tim.tdj said:

I actually believe that anyone who is not exactly like me in this regard has something deeply wrong with them.

Do you think others are enjoying the torture? That they like what's being done? I think you're mistaken. 

And I'm sorry, but I think it's deeply wrong to feel this way about people who aren't exactly like you.

Hi Everyone

Thank you very much for your replies. I thank that some very interesting points have been made.

Phi for Ali, I think you have misinterpreted me. To be honest, I simply don't know to what extent others are enjoying the torture. That is partly why I made this posting so that I could get a better idea of this. 

As for your second point, I will requote myself fuller than you quoted me:

2 hours ago, tim.tdj said:

The only emotional response I have towards torture is deep horror and the feeling that my blood has become very cold in a very unpleasant way. I am not in any way whatsoever entertained by it. I suspect that there are some people who think I have something wrong with me because of this. Well I don't. I actually believe that anyone who is not exactly like me in this regard has something deeply wrong with them.

Firstly, note that I said "in this regard". Obviously, I do not think that there is something wrong with people who are not like me in every way.

I will now pick apart what I said into its components:

1. "The only emotional response I have towards torture is deep horror and the feeling that my blood has become very cold in a very unpleasant way." Do I think there is something wrong with people who are not like this? Yes I do.

2. "I am not in any way whatsoever entertained by it." Firstly, my definition of "entertained" simply means made happy so I do indeed think that there is something wrong with people who are made happy by watching torture. However I don't think that there is anything wrong with people who feel that they have been educated or informed by watching torture.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, tim.tdj said:

Phi for Ali, I think you have misinterpreted me. To be honest, I simply don't know to what extent others are enjoying the torture. That is partly why I made this posting so that I could get a better idea of this. 

You glossed over my explanation of the need for conflict in any story. Torture is supposed to horrify the audience, and I think it does in the vast majority of cases. I don't believe people are enjoying the torture, they're enjoying seeing their hero thwart the bad guys, or they enjoy seeing triumph over adversity, or they enjoy the growth the characters experience due to abnormal conflicts.

I don't see how I'm misinterpreting you. Perhaps you could explain that part. I just asked if you think other people are enjoying the torture, and that's why it sickens you so much.

1 hour ago, tim.tdj said:

Firstly, note that I said "in this regard". Obviously, I do not think that there is something wrong with people who are not like me in every way.

I thought it was obvious too, and I don't know why you feel the need to expand my comment. I did quote you fully on this. I understand that you only think people are wrong who don't feel exactly the way you do about torture as any part of entertainment. Nothing I said implied more. 

I think you're making the mistake of thinking people are being "entertained" by the torture, and not by what it means in terms of the story. Do you feel the same way about villains who threaten children? I find behavior like that nauseating, but I know it's a tool good writers use to fan emotional flames, make you care about characters. I didn't like that bank robber to begin with, but when he pulled a child out of line and held a gun to their head, I found a whole new level of dislike.

Dramatic characters get put through a gauntlet of challenges, and torture is one that makes us all feel especially helpless. It can explain why someone has been broken, and it makes their recovery and triumph more poignant and relatable. Anyone who has seen a Harrison Ford movie knows that by the end, he's going to look like he's been run through a meat grinder. His wounds are like reminders of each conflict he and the audience went through. 

1 hour ago, tim.tdj said:

I will now pick apart what I said into its components:

All this tells me is that you do, indeed, believe there are a lot of people who enjoy seeing torture for entertainment, rather than recognizing it as a dramatic tool for plotting stories, and you're offended by that. If I thought it were true, I'd be offended too.

[peterwlocke]

well for some it depends, I guess like when it happens to a character you dislike.

[Phi for All]

15 minutes ago, peterwlocke said:

well for some it depends, I guess like when it happens to a character you dislike.

It's torture if it happens to the protagonist, but if you're the antagonist it's punishment or just deserts. 

[tim.tdj]

23 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You glossed over my explanation of the need for conflict in any story. Torture is supposed to horrify the audience, and I think it does in the vast majority of cases. I don't believe people are enjoying the torture, they're enjoying seeing their hero thwart the bad guys, or they enjoy seeing triumph over adversity, or they enjoy the growth the characters experience due to abnormal conflicts.

I don't see how I'm misinterpreting you. Perhaps you could explain that part. I just asked if you think other people are enjoying the torture, and that's why it sickens you so much.

I thought it was obvious too, and I don't know why you feel the need to expand my comment. I did quote you fully on this. I understand that you only think people are wrong who don't feel exactly the way you do about torture as any part of entertainment. Nothing I said implied more. 

I think you're making the mistake of thinking people are being "entertained" by the torture, and not by what it means in terms of the story. Do you feel the same way about villains who threaten children? I find behavior like that nauseating, but I know it's a tool good writers use to fan emotional flames, make you care about characters. I didn't like that bank robber to begin with, but when he pulled a child out of line and held a gun to their head, I found a whole new level of dislike.

Dramatic characters get put through a gauntlet of challenges, and torture is one that makes us all feel especially helpless. It can explain why someone has been broken, and it makes their recovery and triumph more poignant and relatable. Anyone who has seen a Harrison Ford movie knows that by the end, he's going to look like he's been run through a meat grinder. His wounds are like reminders of each conflict he and the audience went through. 

All this tells me is that you do, indeed, believe there are a lot of people who enjoy seeing torture for entertainment, rather than recognizing it as a dramatic tool for plotting stories, and you're offended by that. If I thought it were true, I'd be offended too.

Hi Phi for All

You have made some very interesting points and thank you very much for that. I fully appreciate those points.

Basically, as I mentioned in my previous post in slightly different words. I do not know how many people enjoy watching torture. However, those people who do enjoy watching it (regardless of how many or how few they are) have something wrong with them.

23 minutes ago, peterwlocke said:

well for some it depends, I guess like when it happens to a character you dislike.

I don't care who the victim is. Torture is always wrong.

[peterwlocke]

6 minutes ago, tim.tdj said:

 

I don't care who the victim is. Torture is always wrong.

 

I see your point but at times it can be satisfying(not in a sadistic way). also, it can if you are morally grey as an example (or bad like Negan).

[iNow]

Perhaps we focus on something more specific, like the Faces/Traces of Death videos from way back when. Those were horrific and watched for enjoyment by many (usually teenage boys)

[Phi for All]

13 minutes ago, tim.tdj said:

I do not know how many people enjoy watching torture. However, those people who do enjoy watching it (regardless of how many or how few they are) have something wrong with them.

So you don't know if it's really happening that way, but think it's wrong if it is. 

Here's the real question. Knowing now that you aren't SUPPOSED to enjoy torture scenes, that they're a literary device for increasing emotional involvement with the characters, will you go back to the episode of The Umbrella Academy and watch it in that new light?

[tim.tdj]

Just now, Phi for All said:

So you don't know if it's really happening that way, but think it's wrong if it is. 

Here's the real question. Knowing now that you aren't SUPPOSED to enjoy torture scenes, that they're a literary device for increasing emotional involvement with the characters, will you go back to the episode of The Umbrella Academy and watch it in that new light?

Interesting question. To be honest, I don't want to fill my head with that sort of horrible imagery and I suspect that there will be more of it to come and there are plenty of other things to watch so I don't think I will.

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

This is a good suggestion, and I suspect contributes a lot to the phenomenon.

Elaborated... It allows us to practice in a safe environment how we might respond were it to happen for real. It's a bit like mentally rehearsing a performance... pretending in your mind what it will feel like to sing in front of a large auditorium or catch a football in a stadium filled with thousands of people. The practice in our mind allows us to do better in reality, and perhaps these types of horrors allow similar... It's a dangerous world, and controlled exposures like this allow us to experience it without the risk of physical harm.

Also, we just like the dopamine and adrenaline rush. Like riding a roller coaster or going skydiving or eating spicy food, we feel more alive when those chemicals are flowing through our systems. The reward mechanism for the rush is pretty high, and films/scenes like this can generate similar surges of neurochemicals.

With this in mind, it seems like the OP rejected the emotional investment because of his feelings about torture in general, and so he's not getting the rewards he should get when a protagonist survives being tortured (and most likely turns the tables on his captors). He felt the initial revulsion we all would feel, but left the story before he could get the surge of neurochemicals that would turn it into exhilaration and triumph. 

I also agree we use story lines like these to practice how we feel about issues and situations. Wrt torture, who hasn't wondered what they would do if faced with such a horrific situation? We may hate what we see, and revile the practice, but we're curious about our responses to such irrational behavior. 

[peterwlocke]

Tim. you seem to reject how other people see this( I may be wrong). but maybe you should look into the imagery of other episodes to see if it is too much and would make you queasy.

 

edit: so many is a bit of a stretch if you mean make happy also you are taking the moral high ground when people try to talk about it with you. just think about it you don't have to share an opinion but look at other perspectives.

Edited February 28, 2019 by peterwlocke
edit

[Ken Fabian]

One of humanity's most problematic traits is our ability to take satisfaction from the harsh treatment of others - as long as we think they are BAD and, therefore, believe they deserve it.

When it comes to TV and movies the establishing that someone is BAD sets the viewer up to get enjoyment from seeing them become the victims of violence. (Yeah, put the alleged child molester into that cell with the giant brutal man-raper! Beat a confession out of that suspect - because in the scene before, we got shown that he's BAD and know he's lying.)

Back in reality no trial or weighing of evidence or camera eyes view of the perpetrator in action is required to believe someone is BAD, but we are prompted in a similar ways to accept the goodness of harsh treatment because of the BADNESS of those getting subjected to it. Often we see it done in ways that associates BADNESS with ethnicity, religion, political or other characteristics, which has made this ability to enjoy it a major part of many of the most horrific instances of mass human violence. The ability to divide violence into BAD violence and GOOD violence might be an evolutionary trait that makes necessary violence possible without driving us crazy, but it is not so well suited to civilised rule of law that seeks to minimise the urge to do violence.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Ken Fabian

[tim.tdj]

2 hours ago, peterwlocke said:

Tim. you seem to reject how other people see this( I may be wrong). but maybe you should look into the imagery of other episodes to see if it is too much and would make you queasy.

 

edit: so many is a bit of a stretch if you mean make happy also you are taking the moral high ground when people try to talk about it with you. just think about it you don't have to share an opinion but look at other perspectives.

Hi Peter

I am an open-minded person so I am not flatly rejecting anything. I know that I might be wrong and other people might be right. Disagreement is not the same as rejection. I am happy to agree to disagree.

You say that I am "taking the moral high ground". Do I think I am better than other people? I don't know. However, I know that I try very hard to be the best that I can be and I don't do this so that I can be better than other people. I think that everyone should try to be the best that they can be so that we are all equally at the top. Some people may be scared of being the best that they can be because they may be scared of being a "tall poppy". I think that this is a rather toxic concept.

[beecee]

12 hours ago, tim.tdj said:

Hi Everyone

I am beginning to lose count of the times that I have had to stop watching a film or TV series I was enjoying because a dreadful scene of torture came up. Last night it happened while I was watching the second episode of The Umbrella Academy on Netflix. I will not be watching any more of it.

Is this really what most people want?

The only emotional response I have towards torture is deep horror and the feeling that my blood has become very cold in a very unpleasant way. I am not in any way whatsoever entertained by it. I suspect that there are some people who think I have something wrong with me because of this. Well I don't. I actually believe that anyone who is not exactly like me in this regard has something deeply wrong with them.

I would be very grateful for any thoughts about what I have said in this posting.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards

Tim

In part I agree. While accepting that movies and acting are just that, as opposed to reality, I personally grimace, turn away, or close my eyes in disgust at some of the portrayals of violence, torture etc. This also happens to me in real life when confronted with blood and gore. Many years ago, when my Son was around 5 years old and had just learnt to ride a bicycle, he came off it and split his chin open. We [the Mrs and I] rushed him to Casualty at the local Hospital and the doctor asked me to hold him while he gave him an injection to deaden the pain and put in 5 stitches. After it was over and my son stopped crying almost immediatly, the doctor had to turn his attention to me, half collapsed in a chair ready to be sick! 

The same applies to violence. A Sicko former work mate of mine, brought in a video one day of a terrorist beheading. There was no way in the world that I was ever going to watch it, and we nearly came to blows over his insensitivities  to such disgusting, depraved actions.

Which raises the question of whether such realism is needed in movies today. I'm not speaking of the mundane scenes of someone being shot, rather the blood and guts that now days inevitably go with it. 

[Ken Fabian]

2 hours ago, beecee said:

I personally grimace, turn away, or close my eyes in disgust at some of the portrayals of violence, torture etc.

There can be a big gap between knowing something brutal is being done and witnessing it first hand. And a bigger gap between knowing others are doing it and being a participant. Easier to tolerate or get satisfaction from brutality from a safe distance. I think it might have been thescienceforum.com where I started a thread on squeamishness and what benefits it's evolution might bring - me being subject to it. Lost with most of the last few years posts at that site.

Our ability to feel empathy can short-circuit hatred and pleasure in the pain of others but when we hate, there is not much room left for empathy. Or logic or reason.

 

[peterwlocke]

On 2/28/2019 at 3:05 PM, tim.tdj said:

Hi Peter

I am an open-minded person so I am not flatly rejecting anything. I know that I might be wrong and other people might be right. Disagreement is not the same as rejection. I am happy to agree to disagree.

You say that I am "taking the moral high ground". Do I think I am better than other people? I don't know. However, I know that I try very hard to be the best that I can be and I don't do this so that I can be better than other people. I think that everyone should try to be the best that they can be so that we are all equally at the top. Some people may be scared of being the best that they can be because they may be scared of being a "tall poppy". I think that this is a rather toxic concept.

thank you for the clarification.