The inevitability of evolution?

[Polinski]

7 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

The other sea birds I mentioned do both and with the same wing movements... 

Nothing flies underwater, I think you might need to check the definition of the word flight. Penguins as you mentioned are however all flightless.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flight

[Moontanman]

4 minutes ago, Polinski said:

Nothing flies underwater, I think you might need to check the definition of the word flight. Penguins as you mentioned are however all flightless.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flight

At what point does flying become swimming in air as the density increases? A drone flying through air that was as dense as water not still be flight? You are simply being pedantic, what is a bird that flies in air doing when it uses the same wings and motions to move underwater? Both air and water are fluids, if air was dense enough a shark shaped being could swim through it... Both birds and manta rays use the same principles to move through their perspective fluids... If a manta ray was light enough it could move from water to air with the same motions in each. 

 

[hypervalent_iodine]

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Moderator Note

Polinski, you are being obtuse and dragging this thread off topic. Please stop. If you have nothing relevant to contribute here, you are welcome to either find a more appropriate thread or create your own. 

 

[Polinski]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I guess birds do not fly either, they swim through the air with wings? 

Look you used the flightless penguin as an example of flight, not me.

7 hours ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

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Moderator Note

Polinski, you are being obtuse and dragging this thread off topic. Please stop. If you have nothing relevant to contribute here, you are welcome to either find a more appropriate thread or create your own. 

 

I am only responding to post that are directed to me, it would be rude not to answer. I always try to be both accurate and polite to all.

7 hours ago, Moontanman said:

At what point does flying become swimming in air as the density increases? A drone flying through air that was as dense as water not still be flight? You are simply being pedantic, what is a bird that flies in air doing when it uses the same wings and motions to move underwater? Both air and water are fluids, if air was dense enough a shark shaped being could swim through it... Both birds and manta rays use the same principles to move through their perspective fluids... If a manta ray was light enough it could move from water to air with the same motions in each. 

 

Never as the qualities needed for aerodynamics and the qualities needed for hydrodynamics are different in Earth gravity which is the constant.  Penguins do not fly thru the air and gulls do not fly thru the water they use their wings for limited motion, in fact they use flight to generate the speed to dive, then waddle slowly back to the surface where they take the air again.

[swansont]

37 minutes ago, Polinski said:

Look you used the flightless penguin as an example of flight, not me.

I am only responding to post that are directed to me, it would be rude not to answer. I always try to be both accurate and polite to all.

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Moderator Note

DON'T.

You popped up in this thread, which had not been active in more than 10 weeks, to split some hairs regarding aerodynamics vs hydrodynamics. Don't you dare try and pass the buck for people responding to your pedantry as if you hadn't instigated the whole thing.

Modnotes are not an invitation to a debate.

 

 

[The Shadow]

On 6/20/2019 at 10:55 AM, Moontanman said:

Both air and water can be thought of as fluids, manta rays wing allow them to fly through water but air is not supportive enough to allow sharks to swim through it. Manta rays and other free swimming rays evolved from flat blotten dwelling rays and evolution seldom results in new structures but it does act on old ones... A Manta ray can fly through the water very fast as can other free swimming rays. The shape of a Manta ray is quite aerodynamic, see delta wing jets... 

I agree. Both are achieving motion by displacement of their respective medium. Kind of reminds me if a propeller on a submarine and also an airplane. Both create forward motion by displacement of medium.