The case for reparations

[CharonY]

9 minutes ago, koti said:

So what exactly are you finding silly? Dave said it clearly in his routines and there's numerous comments from critics discussing his stance. Is he a "black sheep"? Hell, maybe we should hang him for condemning the current PC culture, what do you think ?

Nope. I say that this is part of the parcel. He can condemn, or better make fun of PC culture (as he does). It is his job. And in all actuality I do think that he is using that as a shtick, he is quite aware of how to navigate it. I would just find it surprising if a stand up comedian was genuinely offended by folks taking offense by their routine. On the one hand it is only a routine, of course. But on the other hand for many comedians finding the cutting edge of society is their thing and they push buttons. That is how some have made a name (like Pryor or Carlin). But rather obviously if you do that, there will always be folks who do not like it, regardless the topic. You could make a routine about gun violence, and if do it right you could offend both 2nd amendment folks, liberals and (perhaps the worst target), gun victims. It is just a consequence one has to accept when one works on this type of routines. 

Jim Jefferies has discussed quite a bit how you pull off offensive bits but come off terribly if you don't. I.e. there is a certain acceptance that folks would not like, and it is not a PC thing. It is that society always had several lines that certain folks find unacceptable. PC is just a convenient excuse to accuse others of.

[koti]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Nope. I say that this is part of the parcel. He can condemn, or better make fun of PC culture (as he does). It is his job. And in all actuality I do think that he is using that as a shtick, he is quite aware of how to navigate it. I would just find it surprising if a stand up comedian was genuinely offended by folks taking offense by their routine. On the one hand it is only a routine, of course. But on the other hand for many comedians finding the cutting edge of society is their thing and they push buttons. Jim Jefferies has discussed quite a bit how you pull off offensive bits but come off terribly if you don't. I.e. there is a certain acceptance that folks would not like, and it is not a PC thing. It is that society always had several lines that certain folks find unacceptable. PC is just a convenient excuse to accuse others of.

Dave Chapelle is genuinly finding it inconvenient to manoeuvre through his routines due to PC crap, he expresses it clearly and thats why he got so much attention because of it. Hes very observant and hes an expert at exploiting whatever is at stake to fuel his trait, that does not render his stance invalid. After all, only the dirty truth is what counts.

Edited March 23, 2019 by koti

[Ten oz]

37 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Assuming for now that this statement is true, how do you think should engagement be other than educating folks regarding the reasons? Such as the vilification of black folks, increased incarceration for similar or lesser crimes etc.? In effect what you describe is a popular stereotype-based narrative which requires some deeper analysis to understand. However, barely anyone proceeds beyond that first step (which typically is the erroneous assumption of a deadbeat father)  and puts the blame on the disadvantaged community. So, how do you think should one meaningfully engage this complex situation? Specifically, how do we address the imbalance of perceptions and power? I.e. we have strong opinions on the failures of the black community and have no trouble implementing policies with, as we know now, rather devastating effects. On the other hand, if we want to address these issues we have to carefully engage, probably everyone but the black community (because they probably have a better insight on how the system is biased against them), as the "average" American is apparently deeply misinformed.

The issue with that, of course, is that African American communities again are on the short end of the stick, and get told that their experiences do not count for much at least up until we can correct the misinformation. Meanwhile, of course right-wing media still beat the drum of black on black violence, drug abusers deadbeat dads and so on.

90% of black people who are murdered are murdered by black people and 85% of white people who are murdered are murdered by white people. Black on black crime as a label promotes inaccurate stereotypes. It is statistically accurate to say in cases where black people are victims of crimes (theft, violence, etc) the perpetrators of those crimes are black. It is equally as statistically accurate to say the same thing about Whites yet it is never said. White on white crime as a label doesn't exist like black on black crime does. 

Crime is worst throughout the U.S. in impoverished communities. White on White crime, Asian on Asian crime, Black on Black crime, and etc are all worst in impoverished communities. 

[koti]

39 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

90% of black people who are murdered are murdered by black people and 85% of white people who are murdered are murdered by white people. Black on black crime as a label promotes inaccurate stereotypes. It is statistically accurate to say in cases where black people are victims of crimes (theft, violence, etc) the perpetrators of those crimes are black. It is equally as statistically accurate to say the same thing about Whites yet it is never said. White on white crime as a label doesn't exist like black on black crime does. 

Crime is worst throughout the U.S. in impoverished communities. White on White crime, Asian on Asian crime, Black on Black crime, and etc are all worst in impoverished communities. 

And what is the crux?

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, koti said:

And what is the crux?

The crux is that there are convenient answers and responses to black on black crimes, including draconian measures. White issues are handled far more carefully, traditionally (other examples include how addiction is handled for each community). Now that folks ask for a similar recognition and handling for black communities some folks cry PC this and sjw that. If folks mention that this is disruptive or inaccurate, one gets accused of playing the race card or excuses it that some folks allegedly silence other folks by calling them racist. IOW there is a double standard at play and even acknowledging that seems to be troublesome.

[iNow]

That’s the core issue at play. A double standard exists, and those most likely to apply this double standard are unconscious of it... unaware they’re even doing it. 

Related is how the term “woke” began popping a few years ago. Fewer people remain willing to remain asleep. 

For many, change is hard. For many, dormancy is easier. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by iNow

[MigL]

I pointed out that the misinformation is out there CharonY ( ask any D Trump supporter ), and you at least, seem to agree with this.
Others, well one specifically, replied that I dropped a 'turd' and I would refuse to further discuss the issue.
I'm still involved in the discussion, trying to make sense of his opinion.
He has stated that he is opposed to reparations, hasn't given any reasons, and attacks those who do.

Edited March 23, 2019 by MigL

[StringJunky]

8 hours ago, CharonY said:

Here is a thing that I find silly. Comedians often push the envelope of what is considered socially acceptable. In some ways, it is their job. And it was always a risk that they risk backlash, be it making fun of certain people, use of obscenities and so on. As long as authorities are not involved (which happened far more in the past than nowadays) I am actually surprised that comedians have a problem with it. After all it is somewhat of an expected element of their job.  

Really? So explain to me how it was significantly worse than the other contestants in the area where it won, please? And I wonder whether you think that all the other winners have clearly won with BP as the sole exception?

That being said, I am glad it did not win best movie (though the one that won was almost as disappointing). BP had good bones and the world building was the single most interesting aspect (though I did not like it at first, it got me thinking after a little bit).

Perhaps to avoid further confrontation, my overall point is the double standard. Crap traditional (aka non-minority dominated) movies win and it is just a misjudgement. Crap minority movies win, and suddenly it must be a PC conspiracy. 

I think it illustrates how difficult the problem is to put everyone on a level base.

8 hours ago, koti said:

So what exactly are you finding silly? Dave said it clearly in his routines and there's numerous comments from critics discussing his stance. Is he a "black sheep"? Hell, maybe we should hang him for condemning the current PC culture, what do you think ?

Do things only appear politically correct because things are not currently politically-correct?  The politically-correct behaviour feels incongruous, or even absurd,  with the current mindset and past history. What I''m saying is that the correct behaviour has to start somewhere and it will naturally feel odd in the beginning because one is not used to it.

[Ten oz]

10 hours ago, CharonY said:

The crux is that there are convenient answers and responses to black on black crimes, including draconian measures. White issues are handled far more carefully, traditionally (other examples include how addiction is handled for each community). Now that folks ask for a similar recognition and handling for black communities some folks cry PC this and sjw that. If folks mention that this is disruptive or inaccurate, one gets accused of playing the race card or excuses it that some folks allegedly silence other folks by calling them racist. IOW there is a double standard at play and even acknowledging that seems to be troublesome.

Right. When crack cocaine was an issue in specific black communities the answer was to increase prison sentences. No that opioids are an issue in specific white communities Politicians want to increase funding for rehabilitation. For blacks drugs have been treated as a criminal justice issue and for whites a healthcare issue. 

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Do things only appear politically correct because things are not currently politically-correct?  The politically-correct behaviour feels incongruous, or even absurd,  with the current mindset and past history. What I''m saying is that the correct behaviour has to start somewhere and it will naturally feel odd in the beginning because one is not used to it.

The notion of politically correctness as a new problem sweeping media and Universities has been around for decades. It is neither something new nor sweeping in scale. Below is President George H.W. Bush complaining about the new growing problem of political correctness stifling free speech back in 1991 nearly 30yrs ago. Of course in the decades since the internet and social media has only empowered free speech to levels never before seen. In my opinion political correctness is merely a catch all excuse one uses when an opinion or ideas of theirs is out of touch with the majority of reasonable people. 

 

[StringJunky]

23 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Right. When crack cocaine was an issue in specific black communities the answer was to increase prison sentences. No that opioids are an issue in specific white communities Politicians want to increase funding for rehabilitation. For blacks drugs have been treated as a criminal justice issue and for whites a healthcare issue. 

The notion of politically correctness as a new problem sweeping media and Universities has been around for decades. It is neither something new nor sweeping in scale. Below is President George H.W. Bush complaining about the new growing problem of political correctness stifling free speech back in 1991 nearly 30yrs ago. Of course in the decades since the internet and social media has only empowered free speech to levels never before seen. In my opinion political correctness is merely a catch all excuse one uses when an opinion or ideas of theirs is out of touch with the majority of reasonable people. 

 

This is my point: people have been free to denigrate some minority group for so long that it feels 'normal' to do so, and Bush at the time was complaining about preserving a style of  speech that should not have been  allowed in the first place. 

[Ten oz]

9 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

This is my point: people have been free to denigrate some minority group for so long that it feels 'normal' to do so, and Bush at the time was complaining about preserving a style of  speech that should not have been  allowed in the first place. 

I agree but am adding that political correctness as an actual thing doesn't exist. It is just a type of MacGuffin used by those seeking to make themselves the victim. It is often easier to claim ones ideas aren't being considered than it is to validate those ideas.  

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, koti said:

And what is the crux?

equality, not money, and its ability to repair society... a tautology is a statement that is always true, but sometimes it's not wrong.  

Edited March 23, 2019 by dimreepr

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

I agree but am adding that political correctness as an actual thing doesn't exist. It is just a type of MacGuffin used by those seeking to make themselves the victim. It is often easier to claim ones ideas aren't being considered than it is to validate those ideas.  

It does exist because some people feel they must act a certain way to be seen as conforming.

Edited March 23, 2019 by StringJunky

[Ten oz]

33 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It does exist because some people feel they must act a certain way to be seen as conforming.

What doesn't that apply to though? Some people conform to any number of fake things. Children write letters to Santa Claus but that doesn't make Santa real. Political correctness as an ideology pushed by academia suppressing freedom of thought or speech doesn't exist. 

[StringJunky]

32 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

What doesn't that apply to though? Some people conform to any number of fake things. Children write letters to Santa Claus but that doesn't make Santa real. Political correctness as an ideology pushed by academia suppressing freedom of thought or speech doesn't exist. 

Says you.

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Says you.

Can you provide a concrete explain of Academics uniting to prevent specific discussion from taking place?

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Can you provide a concrete explain of Academics uniting to prevent specific discussion from taking place?

Strawman. Who said PC was an 'academic' thing? PC is a behaviour.

Quote

The term political correctness (adjectivally: politically correct; commonly abbreviated PC) is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society.[1][2][3][4][5] Since the late 1980s, the term has come to refer to avoiding language or behavior that can be seen as excluding, marginalizing, or insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged or discriminated against, especially groups defined by sex or race. In public discourse and the media, it is generally used as a pejorative, implying that these policies are excessive or unwarranted.[6][3][7][8][9][10][11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

I hope you realize you are totally throwing the OP off course. I think CharonY wanted this topic to be an exploration of the issues surrounding the the idea of reparation for blacks, not for us to take a side and start arguing. 

[Ten oz]

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Strawman. Who said PC was an 'academic' thing? PC is a behaviour.

That is fair. I am responding to the use I most often see where PC culture is more specific.

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I hope you realize you are totally throwing the OP off course. I think CharonY wanted this topic to be an exploration of the issues surrounding the the idea of reparation for blacks, not for us to take a side and start arguing. 

I don't think I am. Black on black crime, PC culture, and etc are often brought into conversations about racial inequality. The negative implications associated with them are often built off of stereotypes and act as a sort of whataboutism argument turning blame or responsibility on the disenfranchised group itself. Challenging those misnomers doesn't derail the discussion. They are part of the inequality. I think it is fairly obvious in koti's post about Black Panther. Lots of movies that various people don't think were good have won Oscar's. Why is Black Panther is singled out?

[StringJunky]

18 hours ago, koti said:

So what exactly are you finding silly? Dave said it clearly in his routines and there's numerous comments from critics discussing his stance. Is he a "black sheep"? Hell, maybe we should hang him for condemning the current PC culture, what do you think ?

Is PC culture bad when it is trying to be inclusive for  those groups that have been marginalised for centuries? Also, concerning Black Panther being crap, is that only because it's being measured with your white metrics i.e. it has messages in it that whites don''t identify with?

18 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

That is fair. I am responding to the use I most often see where PC culture is more specific.

I don't think I am. Black on black crime, PC culture, and etc are often brought into conversations about racial inequality. The negative implications associated with them are often built off of stereotypes and act as a sort of whataboutism argument turning blame or responsibility on the disenfranchised group itself. Challenging those misnomers doesn't derail the discussion. They are part of the inequality. I think it is fairly obvious in koti's post about Black Panther. Lots of movies that various people don't think were good have won Oscar's. Why is Black Panther is singled out?

I had a look again at Koti's post and decided to pick him on it above.

[jajrussel]

51 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Strawman. Who said PC was an 'academic' thing? PC is a behaviour.

I hope you realize you are totally throwing the OP off course. I think CharonY wanted this topic to be an exploration of the issues surrounding the the idea of reparation for blacks, not for us to take a side and start arguing. 

Whenever it is thought by one of the participants that the color of a person's skin makes them a racist the conversation is doomed

 

25 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

That is fair. I am responding to the use I most often see where PC culture is more specific.

I don't think I am. Black on black crime, PC culture, and etc are often brought into conversations about racial inequality. The negative implications associated with them are often built off of stereotypes and act as a sort of whataboutism argument turning blame or responsibility on the disenfranchised group itself. Challenging those misnomers doesn't derail the discussion. They are part of the inequality. I think it is fairly obvious in koti's post about Black Panther. Lots of movies that various people don't think were good have won Oscar's. Why is Black Panther is singled out?

Why was black panther singled out by the media before the Oscars as deserving an Oscar because racism had prevented past movies that were good from receiving Oscars which was an opinion.

Koti didn't like the movie. That doesn't make him a racist. There have been several people in this thread that haven't agreed with you. That doesn't make them racist.

My opinion is, that you imply through your responses that they are. You assumed that one of them was from the US because of his statement. What does the say?

Edited March 23, 2019 by jajrussel

[Ten oz]

17 hours ago, koti said:

You have got to be kidding me. Do you seriously exercize the idea that this movie got rewarded for its merits? It's a piece of crap and it getting awards is a disgrace to cinematography. There is no clearer example of pollitical correctness going too far.

Black Panther wasn't nominated for Best Cinematography. It was nominated for Musical Score, Costume Design, Production Design, Sound Mixing, Sound Editing, and Best Picture. It won Oscar's for Musical Score, Costume Design, and Production Design. Art is subjective but I think it is fair to say Black Panther did have music, sound, and design which was expertly utilized. 

I assume (and you can correct me if I am wrong) that you are implying Black Panther got extra consideration because it was Directed by and starred black people. Yet the Director wasn't nominated for anything and neither were any of the actors from the movie. The Musical Score Oscar went to Ludwig Göransson who is a White Male. The Production Design Oscar went to Jay Robert Hart and Hannah Beachler. Jay Robert Hart is a White Male. 

9 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

Koti didn't like the movie. That doesn't make him a racist. There have been several people in this thread that haven't agreed with you. That doesn't make them racist.

Whom here have I called racist?

[koti]

13 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Is PC culture bad when it is trying to be inclusive for  those groups that have been marginalised for centuries? Also, concerning Black Panther being crap, is that only because it's being measured with your white metrics i.e. it has messages in it that whites don''t identify with?

I had a look again at Koti's post and decided to pick him on it above.

"White metrics"? Stringy, you're better than this.

9 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

Whenever it is thought by one of the participants that the color of a person's skin makes them a racist the conversation is doomed

 

Why was black panther singled out by the media before the Oscars as deserving an Oscar because racism had prevented past movies that were good from receiving Oscars which was an opinion.

Koti didn't like the movie. That doesn't make him a racist. There have been several people in this thread that haven't agreed with you. That doesn't make them racist.

My opinion is, that you imply through your responses that they are. You assumed that one of them was from the US because of his statement. What does the say?

Realax, no one implied in this thread that I'm racist.

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Black Panther wasn't nominated for Best Cinematography. It was nominated for Musical Score, Costume Design, Production Design, Sound Mixing, Sound Editing, and Best Picture. It won Oscar's for Musical Score, Costume Design, and Production Design. Art is subjective but I think it is fair to say Black Panther did have music, sound, and design which was expertly utilized. 

I assume (and you can correct me if I am wrong) that you are implying Black Panther got extra consideration because it was Directed by and starred black people. Yet the Director wasn't nominated for anything and neither were any of the actors from the movie. The Musical Score Oscar went to Ludwig Göransson who is a White Male. The Production Design Oscar went to Jay Robert Hart and Hannah Beachler. Jay Robert Hart is a White Male. 

Seems perfectly correct. For a statement from someone who claims that pollitical correctness does not exist.

[Ten oz]

28 minutes ago, koti said:

Seems perfectly correct. For a statement from someone who claims that pollitical correctness does not exist.

So then we agree that Black Panther's Oscar nominations had nothing to do race.

 As for Dave Chappelle lamenting about various audiences not liking his jokes isn't that the nature of his industry? In my opinion It is Chappelle's job to entertain the audience and not the audiences job to laugh at jokes they don't find funny. Dave Chappelle makes millions and has a large base of fans. It would be inaccurate to imply Chappelle is being silenced or isn't free to speak his mind. Not every audience likes him. That's no big deal. No celebrities I am aware of are Universally loved. A comic telling Catholic Priest pedophile jokes  in Vatican City  will get less laughs than if they told the said jokes in New York City. Entertainers need to know their audience. 

[jajrussel]

24 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Black Panther wasn't nominated for Best Cinematography. It was nominated for Musical Score, Costume Design, Production Design, Sound Mixing, Sound Editing, and Best Picture. It won Oscar's for Musical Score, Costume Design, and Production Design. Art is subjective but I think it is fair to say Black Panther did have music, sound, and design which was expertly utilized. 

I assume (and you can correct me if I am wrong) that you are implying Black Panther got extra consideration because it was Directed by and starred black people. Yet the Director wasn't nominated for anything and neither were any of the actors from the movie. The Musical Score Oscar went to Ludwig Göransson who is a White Male. The Production Design Oscar went to Jay Robert Hart and Hannah Beachler. Jay Robert Hart is a White Male. 

Whom here have I called racist?

The media is constantly trying to rally people around an anti white banner. Tell me should he gave gotten any thing just because he is black. That is what reperations speaks to, you get something because you think you have been offended from someone who had nothing to do with it. The children pay for the sins of the father. And must accept that, because they are children of the father, that they were born guilty. Isn't that racism? Should I call it justice?

Did you call someone racist? I must have missed that part. I noticed that you implied racism when you were unhappy with some of the responses. Maybe I was wrong. Koti thanks I got the wrong impression. I accept his counsel. I hate racism in any form. That is my bias. If I went overboard I apologize.

I have not seen the movie, but I have never seen a marvel movie that I did not like. I'm fairly certain that it would have to be a really really bad movie for that to change, I like the genre.

 

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

The media is constantly trying to rally people around an anti white banner.

You feel this is happening in the U.S.?

16 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

Tell me should he gave gotten any thing just because he is black.

If the question is related to the Oscars than my answer is no. I don't think anyone should win an Oscar based on race.

21 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

That is what reperations speaks to, you get something because you think you have been offended from someone who had nothing to do with it. The children pay for the sins of the father. And must accept that, because they are children of the father, that they were born guilty. Isn't that racism? Should I call it justice?

I recommend you review the link the OP for more context. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/