The case for reparations

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yeah. Lets take those kids playing happily in the sandbox and find out what happened yesterday. Let's interrogate them to find out what lead to that scuffle...let's get to the bottom of this...

Do you find that to be a comparable situation?

[dimreepr]

Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yeah. Lets take those kids playing happily in the sandbox and find out what happened yesterday. Let's interrogate them to find out what lead to that scuffle...let's get to the bottom of this...

As straw men go, that's quite desperate.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Do you find that to be a comparable situation?

I find it analogous...just add self righteous adults that feels their opinions are more important than the kids.

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

As straw men go, that's quite desperate.

How is it as analogies go?

[dimreepr]

Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

I find it analogous...just add self righteous adults that feels their opinions are more important than the kids.

How is it as analogies go?

A straw man to support a straw man, doesn't explain much.

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I find it analogous...just add self righteous adults that feels their opinions are more important than the kids.

 

Wow. I can see this conversation is going to go nowhere.

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Wow. I can see this conversation is going to go nowhere.

Indeed, righteous indignation is just a recruitment tool... +1

[iNow]

Can we focus please on the topic instead of each other?

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just to be clear...my analogy is for comparing to the reparations issue on the American National stage...any reflection on those discussing it here is not intended.

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Can we focus please on the topic instead of each other?

Indeed but the topic is inevitably political, so we need to dismiss erroneous beliefs before we properly address the topic. 

[Phi for All]

49 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Looking forward, and trying to avoid repeating the sins of the past, is not the same as "doing nothing". 

It is when the elements that created the "sins" (do you call them that because you want them easily forgiven?) are still in place. Instead of learning to live with and avoid stepping on the mines, how about we remove the minefields?

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It is when the elements that created the "sins" (do you call them that because you want them easily forgiven?) are still in place. Instead of learning to live with and avoid stepping on the mines, how about we remove the minefields?

Agree...and let's do it carefully...they're minefields!

Edited June 22, 2019 by J.C.MacSwell

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Agree...and let's do it carefully...they're minefields!

So, lets do something???

Edited June 22, 2019 by dimreepr

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

So, lets do something???

Carefully...no running out onto the minefield...AKA triggering the worst of human nature

...AKA acting like a typical politician circa 2019...

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Carefully...no running out onto the minefield...AKA triggering the worst of human nature

...AKA acting like a typical politician circa 2019...

Um, no. The mines are the many obstacles that black-skinned humans face in the US that don't apply to white-skinned humans. The attitudes that actually resulted in triggering the worst of (white) human nature. And nobody but you is suggesting running in to anything. The exact opposite is true, so why make this conversation so hard?

In this age of tweets and sound bytes, panties get bunched pretty quickly, and nobody wants to give these types of subjects the intellectual time they deserve. I think discussion on black reparations is too important to set it on fire so quickly. Forums like this should be places to dig deep, and leave the shallow positions to the cable pundits whore in it for the ratings and profit. 

[iNow]

14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

discussion on black reparations is too important to set it on fire so quickly. Forums like this should be places to dig deep, and leave the shallow positions to the cable pundits whore in it for the ratings and profit

Will you please stop bludgeoning them and calling them racist, intolerant bigots?!

[MigL]

No I haven't backtracked at all INow.
I still don't think, given the current state of race relations in the US, that this is the right thing to do at this time.
It will only lead to more bitter relations in these polarized times.
I would like to see past injustices addressed and considered only in the scope of achieving equal treatment for all Americans; not reparations.
And I said that in my previous post.

Incidentally, the irony of a group of Americans ( and one Brit ) lecturing two multicultural Canadians on race relations and inclusivity, seems to be lost on you guys.

[J.C.MacSwell]

32 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Um, no. The mines are the many obstacles that black-skinned humans face in the US that don't apply to white-skinned humans. The attitudes that actually resulted in triggering the worst of (white) human nature. And nobody but you is suggesting running in to anything. The exact opposite is true, so why make this conversation so hard?

In this age of tweets and sound bytes, panties get bunched pretty quickly, and nobody wants to give these types of subjects the intellectual time they deserve. I think discussion on black reparations is too important to set it on fire so quickly. Forums like this should be places to dig deep, and leave the shallow positions to the cable pundits whore in it for the ratings and profit. 

Right. This is the type of place for discussing it. Again, my remarks were with regard to those who wish to use it for political gain (no one here I would suspect), and my belief that it will result in more negative than positive results in that wider forum...or as you put it...the taking up of shallow positions.

Would you like to see Trump win an election over this? Serious question. Obama, in part, won because he refused to get sucked down that road.

Edited June 22, 2019 by J.C.MacSwell

[zapatos]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

I'm merely pointing out that, in the current American political climate, this is setting up for civil unrest and even more resentment/mistrust from both sides.
 

 

7 hours ago, zapatos said:

I may be mistaken, but you also seem to be implying that for the above reason we should not investigate or implement reparations. Do I have that right?

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

No I haven't backtracked at all INow.


I'm disappointed for two reasons. One reason is that someone of your intellectual capability would EVER take a stand against investigating pretty much anything. And two, and I don't mean to be offensive, but refusing to even look into whether a human rights violation should be compensated for in some way for fear of the consequences, sounds like a decision made from fear.

[MigL]

I want to be upset by your comment, Zap, but I find it rather flattering...

I am against historical backtracking.
I am not against a level playing field for all.

By all means, lets discuss ways to achieve equality for all Americans, but not ways to make people resent each other even more.
There were no human rights laws at the time of slavery, and as JC has commented, applying present day laws to past actions, is a slippery slope.

edit:
I'm Canadian.
We're loved by all.
What do I have to fear ?

Edited June 22, 2019 by MigL

[iNow]

Also, the issues extended well beyond slavery. That’s part of this study that’s getting so many folks worked up. 

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

I am not against a level playing field for all.

Then we'll need to level that field: better schools, less persecution and imprisonment, less poverty, etc... 

12 hours ago, MigL said:

There were no human rights laws at the time of slavery, and as JC has commented, applying present day laws to past actions, is a slippery slope.

To what?

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Then we'll need to level that field: better schools, less persecution and imprisonment, less poverty, etc... 

To what?

I think you are unlikely to find anyone here disagree with that.

My slippery slope comment was with regard to affirmative action, which I'm not absolutely against, but believe should be applied with caution. It involves favouring some people over others based on their race or gender.

 

[iNow]

40 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It involves favouring some people over others based on their race or gender.

Another valid way to frame this issue is that it involves proactively and with intention resetting a system which has for centuries favored some people over others based on their skin color or gender. 

The way we say things affects how people feel about them.

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Another valid way to frame this issue is that it involves proactively and with intention resetting a system which has for centuries favored some people over others based on their skin color or gender. 

The way we say things affects how people feel about them.

And vice versa. There is more than one way to view the same thing. It is unfair and unreasonable to expect everyone to subscribe to your viewpoint, especially when you are intentionally framing it in a particular way, regardless of how well intended (or not).

Resetting a system to make it perfectly fair for everyone is impractical, even if you could fully trust those charged with doing it.

What can be practically accomplished is not always clear, but improvements have certainly been made in the last couple centuries (though sometimes at great cost)

..."you" should not be read as "you" in particular...it applies to all of us

[iNow]

Nobody is talking about perfection. Improvement is the goal. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Even you earlier suggesting equity and fairness is good and should be sought, yet here now you seem to be putting up obstacles against that, too. 

Improvements have been made. More are still needed. There will be costs, but there will also be benefits.

This is not linear, and nobody is expecting everyone to subscribe to my viewpoint (though it sure would be dandy if they did, or if they at least started looking for paths to success instead of continuing to introduce new and arbitrary... no, surmountable... reasons to avoid seeking it).