The case for reparations

[MigL]

The amends or reparations, Zap, are usually done by the perpetrator of the misdeed.
These reparations, on the other hand, are asking people, who had no participation in the past misdeeds, to take 'blame' for those misdeeds.I'm not saying those misdeeds are not still occurring, but not everyone is participating.
I don't see how that won't cause resentment
Similarly, African Americans are led to believe the reparations will fix everything, yet their lot will still be inequitable.
And that will cause resentment.

[zapatos]

22 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

For the quick maybe...but never for the dead.

We are not talking about compensating those who are dead. We are talking about compensating those who are suffering harm today.

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

The amends or reparations, Zap, are usually done by the perpetrator of the misdeed.
These reparations, on the other hand, are asking people, who had no participation in the past misdeeds, to take 'blame' for those misdeeds.

One of the perpetrators is the US government.

Just as the company keeps responsibility for the person who was negligent when building the faulty ladder (even if that person is now dead), the government keeps responsibility for the acts of slaveholders who were sanctioned by their government.

As a stockholder of the ladder company I will see my dividends go down when the company pays the person who was harmed, even though I had no participation in the past misdeed.

Edited June 21, 2019 by zapatos

[MigL]

Correct; A government is a representative of the people who vote it into power.
Are you, INow or CharonY willing to take responsibility and blame for H Truman's use of the atomic bombs ?
Will your children be responsible and blamed for D Trump's idiotic presidency ?
( just a couple of examples, but there are many more )

Ultimately it is your country, and you will do as you will.
If you use the discussion as a means to address the disenfranchisement of a specific group, and how to form a more inclusive/equitable society, so much the better.
If, on the other hand, you use the discussion as a hammer to bludgeon those with opposing views ( or no wish to accept responsibility for past actions ), and call them racist/intolerant/bigots, then I see more fracturing of American society.
Based just on this thread, which do you see happening ?

[Phi for All]

33 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

These are old wounds...efforts should be focused on avoiding similar ones happening in the future IMO.

False dilemma. Why couldn't the reparations include something like favored access to higher education, which would be compensation AND help avoid future similar events? 

It's hard to argue against a smarter citizenry. 

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

If, on the other hand, you use the discussion as a hammer to bludgeon those with opposing views ( or no wish to accept responsibility for past actions ), and call them racist/intolerant/bigots, then I see more fracturing of American society.

Instead, I would remind those intolerant racists that they aren't taking PERSONAL responsibility in this instance. This is about being a US citizen, and taking that responsibility seriously. Particularly, this is about being a white US citizen and realizing that this will make us better.

But that's also a conversation we need to have in this country. We've forgotten the difference between living in a group and living in a society. We're ignoring our vaccinations for personal reasons, and farming out our responsibility to the law to private prison firms, and allowing our representative democracy to be corrupted by individual extremists.

[CharonY]

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

Are you, INow or CharonY willing to take responsibility and blame for H Truman's use of the atomic bombs ?
Will your children be responsible and blamed for D Trump's idiotic presidency ?

If the action have direct effect on those today, absolutely (again, read the article, much of that is being explored there). And yes, if atrocities happening the following generations have the duty to address it. It is not about blame or even sharing blame. It is about rectifying situations for those still suffering from injustice and ensuring equity for the future. 

 

13 minutes ago, MigL said:

and call them racist/intolerant/bigots, then I see more fracturing of American society.
Based just on this thread, which do you see happening ?

I don't know how about you tell me?

[zapatos]

8 minutes ago, MigL said:

Correct; A government is a representative of the people who vote it into power.
Are you, INow or CharonY willing to take responsibility and blame for H Truman's use of the atomic bombs ?
Will your children be responsible and blamed for D Trump's idiotic presidency ?
( just a couple of examples, but there are many more )

I'm not sure what your point is. Why does it matter if I "take" responsibility? If the government buys some goods from Canada I have to pay. I don't get to say "I'm not paying that part of my taxes because I didn't want you to buy those staplers."

Quote

If you use the discussion as a means to address the disenfranchisement of a specific group, and how to form a more inclusive/equitable society, so much the better.
If, on the other hand, you use the discussion as a hammer to bludgeon those with opposing views ( or no wish to accept responsibility for past actions ), and call them racist/intolerant/bigots, then I see more fracturing of American society.

Do you really think the whole purpose of this discussion is to come up with a tool with which to bash people?

Quote

Based just on this thread, which do you see happening ?

Well, I don't see iNow, CharonY or me bludgeoning anyone, or calling them racist, intolerant bigots. Did I miss something?

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

False dilemma. Why couldn't the reparations include something like favored access to higher education, which would be compensation AND help avoid future similar events? 

It's hard to argue against a smarter citizenry. 

How favoured? Who gets disfavoured to allow for it? This can create future (and present) discriminatory events (which I can agree with implementing to some extent, but only in the most egregious circumstances...it's a slippery slope)

 

[iNow]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Well, I don't see iNow, CharonY or me bludgeoning anyone, or calling them racist, intolerant bigots. Did I miss something?

Unfortunately, right now it’s MigL who holds the cudgel, even though he may not realize it.

Again, it’s preferable to focus on the topic and not on the caricatured versions of each other we each draft in our heads. 

Yes. The slope is slippery, so grab a sled and some skis and let’s all just stop being so GD afraid of it. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Unfortunately, right now it’s MigL who holds the cudgel, even though he may not realize it.

Again, it’s preferable to focus on the topic and not on the caricatured versions of each other we each draft in our heads. 

Yes. The slope is slippery, so grab a sled and some skis and let’s all just stop being so GD afraid of it. 

Surely...the irony of that statement cannot be lost on you...

[iNow]

18 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Surely...the irony of that statement cannot be lost on you...

It seems the cudgel got passed next to you. Let’s focus on the topic please. 

Current Plan: Study reparations more. Full stop. 

It’s too murky and turbocharged of a topic to do it without a foundation of facts.

More facts are needed. 

Stop being a bunch of bed wetters and study it, and stop standing in the way of those trying. 

[MigL]

"It is about rectifying situations for those still suffering from injustice and ensuring equity for the future."

Couldn't have said it better myself, CharonY.
Wait a minute, I did !

Amends or reparations are done by someone who has wronged someone else.
There are obviously quite a few in today's society who are wronging African Americans; but certainly not all.
What exactly does this second group have to make amends, restorations or restitutions for ?
I think we have different ideas on ensuring equity for the future.

We have been discussing this idea for 9 pages now, INow, so as far as I can tell no one is against discussion.
I'm just of the opinion that it won't lead anywhere near 'equity for the future' and may, in fact, be more harmful to your society.
For now that makes me a 'bed-wetter'; what's next ?

And as I recall, Phi, the US is still a democracy ( which can be bought, apparently, but that's beside the point ), and as such, roughly 360 million people have different ideas of what is better for white US citizens; you know, those intolerant racists that need reminding what is best for them.

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

It seems the cudgel got passed next to you. Let’s focus on the topic please. 

Current Plan: Study reparations more. Full stop. 

It’s too murky and turbocharged of a topic to do it without a foundation of facts.

More facts are needed. 

Stop being a bunch of bed wetters and study it, and stop standing in the way of those trying. 

Touche...but emphasizes MGL's point

I think the reparations issue has been brought to the for front primarily by the Democrat Primaries, predominantly for political reasons.

I trust them more when they are genuinely looking forward, than when looking backward for self serving reasons.

One of the few with a consistently positive message (reparations discussed around 10 minute mark):

 

[iNow]

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

For now that makes me a 'bed-wetter'; what's next ?

Snowflake, maybe?

[CharonY]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

There are obviously quite a few in today's society who are wronging African Americans; but certainly not all.
What exactly does this second group have to make amends, restorations or restitutions for ?

Please consider reading the article. Essentially we are not talking about a wrong that was done once way back by folks who are no longer around. We are talking about measures that were ongoing, supported by the government and still persist to this day that unfairly target black folks. While there is an increasing recognition that was is being done, folks are still suffering from it (e.g. disproportionately higher sentences) with all the downstream fallout from them (e.g. poverty and loss of health). The idea is to look into those specific events (e.g. which families got shafted by banks) and compensate them for their loss. It has been done for Japanese-Americans, it has been done for Jews. Why is it impossible for black folks? I simply cannot find a good reason in your argument why rectifying the situation is fundamentally different. All of the arguments you provided could be said to the other groups and none of your worries manifested. 

At the same time, claiming that only starting to look into the matter is what causes issues, is what really divisive is something that just does not play right with the data we have. On the one hand we got folks who objectively still suffer from worse outcomes on many metrics. On the other hand, some folks may get offended because rectifying the situation somehow may imply that they might have been racist in the past? That just simply does not balance out.

[iNow]

14 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I think the reparations issue has been brought to the for front primarily by the Democrat Primaries, predominantly for political reasons

Perhaps that’s when and how you personally awoke to the issue. Trust that this issue has been undormant for far longer than just that. 

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Please consider reading the article. 

He did. Confirmed 6 hours ago. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

22 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Please consider reading the article. Essentially we are not talking about a wrong that was done once way back by folks who are no longer around. We are talking about measures that were ongoing, supported by the government and still persist to this day that unfairly target black folks. While there is an increasing recognition that was is being done, folks are still suffering from it (e.g. disproportionately higher sentences) with all the downstream fallout from them (e.g. poverty and loss of health). The idea is to look into those specific events (e.g. which families got shafted by banks) and compensate them for their loss. It has been done for Japanese-Americans, it has been done for Jews. Why is it impossible for black folks? I simply cannot find a good reason in your argument why rectifying the situation is fundamentally different. All of the arguments you provided could be said to the other groups and none of your worries manifested. 

At the same time, claiming that only starting to look into the matter is what causes issues, is what really divisive is something that just does not play right with the data we have. On the one hand we got folks who objectively still suffer from worse outcomes on many metrics. On the other hand, some folks may get offended because rectifying the situation somehow may imply that they might have been racist in the past? That just simply does not balance out.

Do you include any one, of any race?

[zapatos]

24 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Do you include any one, of any race?

Speaking only for myself of course...

No. This is not about all wrongs to all people. This is about slavery and the continued impact on blacks.

If you want to talk about other people and other issues, that should be taken up outside of this discussion. 

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

The amends or reparations, Zap, are usually done by the perpetrator of the misdeed.
These reparations, on the other hand, are asking people, who had no participation in the past misdeeds, to take 'blame' for those misdeeds.I'm not saying those misdeeds are not still occurring, but not everyone is participating.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem, that's the bottom line; past misdeeds are perpetuated if we passively stand by and let the inequity continue, while living comfortably on those misdeeds.  

10 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Do you include any one, of any race?

We should, but first things first.

[MigL]

Well then, let me be the first to point out, Dimreepr, that Americans left England because of religious persecution.
They had to leave their way of life behind, and start over in a challenging new world.
I believe you and your countrymen owe them restitution.

But seriously, you guys make it seem like I'm against all Americans being treated equally and past injustices not being addressed/considered.
I'm not; but if you only consider your own personal viewpoint, you're not having a discussion.
I'm simply presenting alternate viewpoints that are going to be brought up in any discussion on the subject.
INow has already labelled my comments 'pushback'.
If you think this is pushback, wait until the D Trump supporters, the white supremacists and even 'regular' folks in the south and Midwest become part of the discussion.
I'm merely pointing out that, in the current American political climate, this is setting up for civil unrest and even more resentment/mistrust from both sides.
Is there any argument with that ?

[dimreepr]

33 minutes ago, MigL said:

Well then, let me be the first to point out, Dimreepr, that Americans left England because of religious persecution.
They had to leave their way of life behind, and start over in a challenging new world.
I believe you and your countrymen owe them restitution.

Nice try, I believe they went on to prosper.

Edit/ and in the context of this thread, they had a choice.

33 minutes ago, MigL said:

I'm merely pointing out that, in the current American political climate, this is setting up for civil unrest and even more resentment/mistrust from both sides.
Is there any argument with that ?

That seems like nothing more than sabre rattling, we can't know the future even when we draw a line in the sand; and it should never be an excuse to just stand by and do nothing.

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by dimreepr

[zapatos]

58 minutes ago, MigL said:

I'm merely pointing out that, in the current American political climate, this is setting up for civil unrest and even more resentment/mistrust from both sides.

I may be mistaken, but you also seem to be implying that for the above reason we should not investigate or implement reparations. Do I have that right?

[J.C.MacSwell]

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Nice try, I believe they went on to prosper.

Edit/ and in the context of this thread, they had a choice.

That seems like nothing more than sabre rattling, we can't know the future even when we draw a line in the sand; and it should never be an excuse to just stand by and do nothing.

 

Looking forward, and trying to avoid repeating the sins of the past, is not the same as "doing nothing". 

Looking back to access levels of wide scale victimhood and blame, for the purpose of compensation, is not the only way to improve racial equality... and certainly no guarantee of improving racial harmony.

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Looking forward, and trying to avoid repeating the sins of the past, is not the same as "doing nothing". 

Looking back to access levels of wide scale victimhood and blame, for the purpose of compensation, is not the only way to improve racial equality... and certainly no guarantee of improving racial harmony.

I guess we'll find out, if we do something...

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I may be mistaken, but you also seem to be implying that for the above reason we should not investigate or implement reparations. Do I have that right?

It was more than implied, it was said:

 

 

19 hours ago, MigL said:

My view has always been, and continues to be (even after reading the article and watching your link ), that a society should strive to be as equitable as possible, but it has no business trying to correct ignorant or malicious mistakes made in the past.

...but he thankfully has walked this back quite a bit in the last several posts and seems far more amenable to the idea now. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I guess we'll find out, if we do something...

Yeah. Lets take those kids playing happily in the sandbox and find out what happened yesterday. Let's interrogate them to find out what lead to that scuffle...let's get to the bottom of this...