Living without sacrificing others (food).

[merinoa]

Are there lives on earth that don't eat others? Is it possible to live without sacrificing / killing others for food? Can something like this be created with science? And I don't mean lab meat or plants. I know it is all about finding enery to live, but the way lifeforms are getting that energy is so cruel. 

[Sensei]

28 minutes ago, merinoa said:

Are there lives on earth that don't eat others? Is it possible to live without sacrificing / killing others for food?

Yes, there are. e.g. animals eating just fruits.

100% Fruitarianism is not really healthy diet for humans though, IMHO.

Dairy products are yet another example of diet which does not require killing animals (but e.g. cows still eat plants).

29 minutes ago, merinoa said:

Can something like this be created with science? And I don't mean lab meat or plants.

On overpopulated planet, artificial meat and GMO microorganisms producing nutrient compounds will be the only solution.

In Japan density of population right now is so high like the planet will have at 50 billions of people. And at this moment, they are producing just ~30% of food they consume. The whole rest is imported from foreign countries. If entire world will have 50 billions of people, Japan won't be able to buy missing 70% of food. Everybody will be in their current position with shortage of food. Prices of food, water, will "skyrocket".. Lands on which you can grow plants will be "priceless"..

Artificial meat and GMO microorganisms producing food will just delay inevitable collapse..

Edited March 23, 2019 by Sensei

[Sensei]

On the other hand, mass-production of fruit trees require killing of the bugs, fungus and other microorganisms which are attacking trees and fruits. Fruitarians are missing this information.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Sensei

[koti]

12 hours ago, merinoa said:

Are there lives on earth that don't eat others? Is it possible to live without sacrificing / killing others for food? Can something like this be created with science? And I don't mean lab meat or plants. I know it is all about finding enery to live, but the way lifeforms are getting that energy is so cruel. 

I would presume there will be methods in the future which will synthesize artificial protein and vitamins and when that happens you could go 100% „vegan” with a clear conscience of not being „cruel” Or you could use the existing science to learn basics of biology, evolution, chemistry which would help you accept your place in nature. You are an omnivorous species which has a diverse diet which depends on factors, geography is one of them. Would you call Eskimo or the meat eating tribes in Africa cruel? In my opinion they are „cruel” exactly to the same extent as any other animal on earth which hunts for food...including my parner when she was 5 months pregnant and was craving beef or me after a 3 hour intense workout on a Friday evening. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by koti

[Sensei]

41 minutes ago, koti said:

I would presume there will be methods in the future which will synthesize artificial protein and vitamins and when that happens you could go 100% „vegan” with a clear conscience of not being „cruel”

It's already done, just not popular.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

 

[koti]

13 minutes ago, Sensei said:

It's already done, just not popular.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

 

Good point. I red about this years back and forgot about it. Its probably extremely expensive compared to traditional meat plus I can imagine Vegans fighting for the life of the meat cells which didn’t have a chance to mature in the process. 

[Phi for All]

On 3/23/2019 at 3:38 PM, merinoa said:

Are there lives on earth that don't eat others? Is it possible to live without sacrificing / killing others for food? Can something like this be created with science? And I don't mean lab meat or plants. I know it is all about finding enery to live, but the way lifeforms are getting that energy is so cruel. 

Since vegetarianism is well-known, can I assume you include eating plants as cruel (to the plants)? I think, at some point, you need to recognize the necessity for the biological process of nourishment, and resolve to minimize the cruelty involved in your eating behavior. Honor the meat by preparing it well, thank the plants for sustaining you. Make the very necessary process meaningful for yourself.

Your present perspective can never be positive. If you look at natural nourishment as cruel murder, you're going to make yourself sick.

[CharonY]

14 hours ago, koti said:

Good point. I red about this years back and forgot about it. Its probably extremely expensive compared to traditional meat plus I can imagine Vegans fighting for the life of the meat cells which didn’t have a chance to mature in the process. 

It clears the ethical issues, but not necessarily the environmental ones, at least not until someone figures out a more energy efficient way to produce it.

[jajrussel]

15 hours ago, koti said:

Good point. I red about this years back and forgot about it. Its probably extremely expensive compared to traditional meat plus I can imagine Vegans fighting for the life of the meat cells which didn’t have a chance to mature in the process. 

I saw a video last month where that said they went so far as to copywrite the name. I don't remember much about it I got bored and took a nap, but I began to think that it wasn't so much about the life of meat cells as it seems to be about the fight. I've read about feelings being hurt because someone was wearing fake fur and fake leather. I can imagine the same argument coming up about a veggie cheeseburger, which I find to be pretty tasty, but then my point of view is add little butter and salt and the result is a gourmet meal.

Unless we are talking about rice cakes. Why in the world anyone would want to eat a puffed up piece of paper I do not know. I'm not taking about real rice cakes with bits of sushi and wasabi heaven on Earth... It's those round puffedd up pieces if cardboard that have no nutritional value. That I don't understand.

Can we live without killing for food? I would think so, but then I'm not going to get upset if someone is wearing fake fur, or eating cultured meat, but if it comes out of a petri dish I'm probably going to have to add some salt and butter and maybe, well definitely, some wasabi.

[jajrussel]

On 3/23/2019 at 5:59 PM, Sensei said:

Yes, there are. e.g. animals eating just fruits.

100% Fruitarianism is not really healthy diet for humans though, IMHO.

Dairy products are yet another example of diet which does not require killing animals (but e.g. cows still eat plants).

On overpopulated planet, artificial meat and GMO microorganisms producing nutrient compounds will be the only solution.

In Japan density of population right now is so high like the planet will have at 50 billions of people. And at this moment, they are producing just ~30% of food they consume. The whole rest is imported from foreign countries. If entire world will have 50 billions of people, Japan won't be able to buy missing 70% of food. Everybody will be in their current position with shortage of food. Prices of food, water, will "skyrocket".. Lands on which you can grow plants will be "priceless"..

Artificial meat and GMO microorganisms producing food will just delay inevitable collapse..

Overpopulation will likely be a global reality someday with a lot of new problems like food shortages. Should the world go vegan the animals not killed for food would then be competitors for the very material that we are eating in effort to spare their lives. What then? Every decision we make today will effect the future. Anyone who knows even a little about numbers knows that a point is always reached where a very small percentage can become a very large number.

Eventually, even with the strictest of controls a point of collapse will be reached. Then our view on what is and isn't humane will likely change. I imagine that very few will voluntarily starve. Our governments will react much the way they do now when economic collapse seems eminent. Resources are the foundation of economics. If there are human survivers we will start over then eventually repeat the process. Our intellect cannot save us unless it shows us how to survive. It would be interesting to see what we will do. Right now we question the humanity if killing animals for food. The questions our future children will have to find answers to will likely be so horrible that we will refuse to believe that it could ever come to that, so we will be caught totally unprepared... Which will necessitate even harsher actions... 

It's amazing where the mind goes when just thinking about the humanity if eating a hamburger.

[Sensei]

4 hours ago, jajrussel said:

Overpopulation will likely be a global reality someday with a lot of new problems like food shortages. Should the world go vegan the animals not killed for food would then be competitors for the very material that we are eating in effort to spare their lives. What then? Every decision we make today will effect the future. Anyone who knows even a little about numbers knows that a point is always reached where a very small percentage can become a very large number. 

..there is needed just a drop by drop of water to fill, and then overflow, cup of glass... and time..

..to have pretty constant population at current ~7.6 billions of people, ~300 thousands of just newly born today babies, would have to fly in the rockets, and never come back..

 

 

9 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Since vegetarianism is well-known, can I assume you include eating plants as cruel (to the plants)? I think, at some point, you need to recognize the necessity for the biological process of nourishment, and resolve to minimize the cruelty involved in your eating behavior. Honor the meat by preparing it well, thank the plants for sustaining you. Make the very necessary process meaningful for yourself. 

..you forgot the most important - don't waste food... Western countries people are wasting an awful amount of food..

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/aug/20/food-waste-alarming-rise-will-see-66-tonnes-thrown-away-every-second

...that requires buying in advance less than you actually need to eat.. and consume the everything what you bought..

ps. I am doing so.. simply because I don't have (working) refrigerator.. and every day visiting at least two-three shops buying fresh new food just for today.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Sensei

[jajrussel]

6 hours ago, Sensei said:

there is needed just a drop by drop of water to fill, and then overflow, cup of glass... and time..

I've begun to think that I am like that cup. The apps still say I should be eating calories, even though I am like that cup. Based on how I felt at the end of those days I did eat that huge amount of food I would lay off and only eat about a third of the calories required. Then I would be scolded by the app no less. I'm fairly certain that we waste a lot of food just buy eating it.

We do throw away a lot of food. I have thought on occasion that there are actuaries determining the package size at the grocer not caring about the waste so long as we buy enough product at the low weight price so that even with lower food prices designed to get us into the store we still spend the amount necessary to keep all the key members of the system in business.

I like to eat, I like to eat left overs so when I shop I'm planning to eat everything. Then Mom will walk in with a bag of fast food. Why? I don't know? She won't listen. She is going to do it because she is my mother. Not eating it results in the kind of temper tantrum that only a mother can have. So I eat then add to it a portion of the food left in the fridge. So there is waste. The actuaries that work for the grocers could care less about the fast food joints economic needs. So there is waste, and the only nutrition need met is the calorie need, but I am like a full cup. If I suffer for a day of low calorie intake it will be for a reason other than calories. It will likely be for a large number of consecutive days I met the calorie need, but did not get the nutrients needed to maintain the red blood cell count needed for someone my size. The grocer doesn't care about that. The only thing fast food places only care about is my salt intake which grocer loves because  I will add salt to my grocery list. It gets confusing. But, it does seem like every time I take steps to save money and better my health both the grocers and Mom also adjust, making my efforts null.

The system is designed to support the economy. I need to adjust my way if dealing with food. If it gets too the point where the government has to step in their first attempt will be to adjust the economy. I always lose when they do that, and I assume that all normal people do, because the next promise will be to lower cost for businesses, the assumption being that business will lower prices. We know how that works.

I have good memories of Japan as a child. I was there at the age when everyday was an adventure. My memories of Japan are not a photographic map, but occasionally a picture or TV show will trigger a sense of happiness and a feeling of having once belonged to a great adventure.

I will check out the link thank you...

Edited March 25, 2019 by jajrussel

[dimreepr]

6 hours ago, Sensei said:

.you forgot the most important - don't waste food... Western countries people are wasting an awful amount of food..

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/aug/20/food-waste-alarming-rise-will-see-66-tonnes-thrown-away-every-second

...that requires buying in advance less than you actually need to eat.. and consume the everything what you bought..

ps. I am doing so.. simply because I don't have (working) refrigerator.. and every day visiting at least two-three shops buying fresh new food just for today.

 

3

just be happy you're eating.

 

 

.

buy an extra carrot and give it to the poor.

[Sensei]

Just now, dimreepr said:

just be happy you're eating.

...trashcans are full of food these days...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism
 

ps. I sold today 3 kg of Aluminium beer cans to scrapyard and bought 0.5 kg of turkey for schnitzel. 3 kg Al is enough for buying 1.1 kg of turkey meat here.

 

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

just be happy you're eating.

...just be happy you exist... at the moment..

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

trashcans are full of food these days.

yes, no ones giving it away.

[Sensei]

Just now, dimreepr said:

yes, no ones giving it away.

Apparently they are filling automagically...

 

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Apparently they are filling automagically...

 

1

not everyone buys the extra carrot to give...

[jajrussel]

34 minutes ago, Sensei said:

trashcans are full of food these days...

In some places there are homeless willing to eat out of some of those trashcans. One such place the employees are told to put the food on top in effort to keep the actual trash out of the Ally. I remember asking why no one collected the food to hand it out. I was told that there were health laws designed to protect the homeless from eating spoiled food which prevents it. Not wasting food is going to be a challenge. Eating out of a dumpster sounds disgusting when you don't have to, but confronting someone who's eating out of a dumpster can be dangerous. A person might suffer severe injuries before they figure that those eating out ofthe dumpster are more interested in being the first ones to get to to the meat, gravy, and mashed potatoes in the dumpster than the humanitarian gift of the carrot.

[jajrussel]

On 3/25/2019 at 4:38 AM, Sensei said:

to have pretty constant population at current ~7.6 billions of people, ~300 thousands of just newly born today babies, would have to fly in the rockets, and never come back..

By never come back. Do you mean to never be able to consume Earth resources? 

Is there a mathematical process by which you come up with the numbers and time frame? It might make for a good app that I would like to use to create what if scenarios. I might be approaching the OP a little too broadly, thinking that maybe the goal of reaching the apparent desire defines as within target.

But if ( and I had no sense that the OP meant this ), if taking a life as cruel applies to micro organisms and applies to germs,bacteria, and plants I'm not sure that the goal is obtainable.

Edited March 26, 2019 by jajrussel
How many mistakes can I make?

[Sensei]

47 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

Is there a mathematical process by which you come up with the numbers and time frame?

The simplest is linear extrapolation using statistical data from the past. It assumes constant growth (which is not possible to sustain in the reality)

e.g. if you have equation f(t0)=x0 and f(t1)=x1, f(t)=x0+(x1-x0)*(t-t0)/(t1-t0)

x0 at time t0 take from world population at some time like t0 = 2010 x0 = 6896

x1 at time t1 take from 2012 x1= 7052

f(2019)= 6896 + ( 7052 - 6896) * ( 2019 - 2010 ) / (2012-2010) =

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=6896+%2B+(+7052+-+6896)+*+(+2019+-+2010+)+%2F+(2012-2010)

The result of this extrapolation is: 7598

It's pretty close as it should be 7600 millions of people as of May 2018 (according to world population article). So at the end of 2012 we could predict what will be at the end of 2018..

1 hour ago, jajrussel said:

By never come back. Do you mean to never be able to consume Earth resources? 

I was rather thinking about procreation (as we are talking about increase of quantity of people with time, rather than abuse of available resources).. But yes. These two things are correlated.

 

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, jajrussel said:

Is there a mathematical process by which you come up with the numbers and time frame?

I like to visualize it using density of population.

Take radius of the Earth ~6370 km = 6370000 m.

Sphere area is [math]4 \pi r^2[/math], so 4 * 3.14159265 * 6370000 m^2 = 5.1*10^14 m^2

Remove from it water area 5.1*10^14 * 29.2% = 1.489*10^14 m^2

Divide area by quantity of people. 1.489*10^14 m^2 / 7.7*10^9 = 19,340

sqrt( 19,340 ) = ~139 m.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sqrt(5.1e%2B14*29.2%%2F7.7e9)

100 m x 100 m is hectare

i.e. land with rectangle 139 x 139 meters (of soil, including ice, deserts, mountains, internal rivers and lakes etc. etc.) has to give everything to survive for a single human being.

If the all people of this world would spread equally on the entire surface of the Earth's lands, each of them could see others just 139m in the all directions.

Now we can imagine how this 139 x 139 rectangle is shrinking with time, when world population is growing steadily with the same rate like now..

 

At 50 billions world population it'll be ~ 55 m x 55m

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sqrt(5.1e%2B14*29.2%%2F50e9)

 

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Sensei said:

I like to visualize it using density of population.

Take radius of the Earth ~6370 km = 6370000 m.

Sphere area is 4πr2 , so 4 * 3.14159265 * 6370000 m^2 = 5.1*10^14 m^2

Remove from it water area 5.1*10^14 * 29.2% = 1.489*10^14 m^2

Divide area by quantity of people. 1.489*10^14 m^2 / 7.7*10^9 = 19,340

sqrt( 19,340 ) = ~139 m.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sqrt(5.1e%2B14*29.2%%2F7.7e9)

100 m x 100 m is hectare

i.e. land with rectangle 139 x 139 meters (of soil, including ice, deserts, mountains, internal rivers and lakes etc. etc.) has to give everything to survive for a single human being.

If the all people of this world would spread equally on the entire surface of the Earth's lands, each of them could see others just 139m in the all directions.

Now we can imagine how this 139 x 139 rectangle is shrinking with time, when world population is growing steadily with the same rate like now..

 

At 50 billions world population it'll be ~ 55 m x 55m

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sqrt(5.1e%2B14*29.2%%2F50e9)

 

7

reality is never linear...

[Sensei]

Just now, dimreepr said:

reality is never linear...

Did not I say it already in the above post " The simplest is linear extrapolation using statistical data from the past. It assumes constant growth (which is not possible to sustain in the reality) " ?

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

The result of this extrapolation is: 7598

It's pretty close as it should be 7600 millions of people as of May 2018

 

A lucky guess

8 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Did not I say it already in the above post " The simplest is linear extrapolation using statistical data from the past. It assumes constant growth (which is not possible to sustain in the reality) " ?

1

then why this?

22 minutes ago, Sensei said:

I like to visualize it using density of population.

Take radius of the Earth ~6370 km = 6370000 m.

Sphere area is 4πr2 , so 4 * 3.14159265 * 6370000 m^2 = 5.1*10^14 m^2

Remove from it water area 5.1*10^14 * 29.2% = 1.489*10^14 m^2

Divide area by quantity of people. 1.489*10^14 m^2 / 7.7*10^9 = 19,340

sqrt( 19,340 ) = ~139 m.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sqrt(5.1e%2B14*29.2%%2F7.7e9)

100 m x 100 m is hectare

i.e. land with rectangle 139 x 139 meters (of soil, including ice, deserts, mountains, internal rivers and lakes etc. etc.) has to give everything to survive for a single human being.

If the all people of this world would spread equally on the entire surface of the Earth's lands, each of them could see others just 139m in the all directions.

Now we can imagine how this 139 x 139 rectangle is shrinking with time, when world population is growing steadily with the same rate like now..

 

At 50 billions world population it'll be ~ 55 m x 55m

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sqrt(5.1e%2B14*29.2%%2F50e9)

 

 

 

[merinoa]

What i meant was, is it possible to create food/energy without taking lives, animals/plants et cetera... Because if you look how we as humans have manipulated nature to survive in a good or bad way by science/laboratory and so on, can science then created something so unique like this? In my eyes it would be so magnificent! I'm a vegetarian, will not eat any lab meat in the future because of the living cells and where it came from. I'm not a higher form of life than other life forms. It is not their fault that nature/the chemical processes has created this all. Cannibalism is an example, no one wants to die. Breatharians is one example but that is suicide with a clean conscience. I can go deeper but i hope you know what i mean about this subject.  Treat others the way you want to be treated. Be wise as a human. Think out of the box, think more broadly .