AI sentience

[wtf]

56 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

In a word: empathetic. In other words: the ability to recognise or sense feelings in others. How would one know? I hurt myself. I express distress. My neighbour comes over and says "Are you OK?"

The quote I questioned said that one can objectively determine sentience in others. A chatbot could say, "Ok my goodness are you ok? That must hurt." That's not sentience. What the objective criteria? As I mentioned earlier, the first chatbot Eliza caused naive people to tell it their innermost secrets. It was a simplistic chatbot with no intelligence at all beyond the ability to repeat phrases. You say, "My toe hurts." It responds, "Tell me more about your toe." People mistook that for sentience. It's the exact same example you're using.

If your neighbor says his toe hurts, you'll say, "Oh that's terrible, I hope it gets better" But if your washing machine prints out "My toe hurts," you'll call the repairman. Computer scientist Scott Aaronson calls that meat chauvinism.

Surely you are not so easily fooled by a chatbot, I hope.

Edited April 17, 2019 by wtf

[FreeWill]

1 hour ago, wtf said:

The quote I questioned said that one can objectively determine sentience in others. A chatbot could say, "Ok my goodness are you ok? That must hurt." That's not sentience. What the objective criteria? As I mentioned earlier, the first chatbot Eliza caused naive people to tell it their innermost secrets. It was a simplistic chatbot with no intelligence at all beyond the ability to repeat phrases. You say, "My toe hurts." It responds, "Tell me more about your toe." People mistook that for sentience. It's the exact same example you're using.

If your neighbor says his toe hurts, you'll say, "Oh that's terrible, I hope it gets better" But if your washing machine prints out "My toe hurts," you'll call the repairman. Computer scientist Scott Aaronson calls that meat chauvinism.

Surely you are not so easily fooled by a chatbot, I hope.

Maybe you just do not recognize sentience. 

The AI works with big data. My operations(sentient actions) executed on previously learned and processed big data. 

I think basic sentience in AI is not that far away(if not already exist). 

Edited April 17, 2019 by FreeWill

[wtf]

6 hours ago, FreeWill said:

Maybe you just do not recognize sentience. 

The AI works with big data. My operations(sentient actions) executed on previously learned and processed big data. 

I think basic sentience in AI is not that far away(if not already exist). 

Fine. I don't know how to recognize sentience. And you just told me that you have OBJECTIVE -- your word -- criteria.

Your quote was: "I think AI can become objectively sentient."

So just tell me what these objective criteria are, that I may be similarly enlightened.

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by wtf

[dimreepr]

6 hours ago, FreeWill said:

Maybe you just do not recognize sentience. 

The AI works with big data. My operations(sentient actions) executed on previously learned and processed big data. 

I think basic sentience in AI is not that far away(if not already exist). 

 

you seem to be conflating sentience with intelligence.

Quote

My operations(sentient actions) executed on previously learned and processed big data. 

sentience is an emergent property you can't program for that.

[peterwlocke]

BIG DATA 

what is this plz explain?

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, peterwlocke said:

BIG DATA 

what is this plz explain?

Stuff that requires a lot of processing, like weather prediction.

[peterwlocke]

oh, it sounded a lot like big pharma why did they not just say a lot of data.

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, peterwlocke said:

oh, it sounded a lot like big pharma why did they not just say a lot of data.

Cuz that's the 'in' word, Man.  

[peterwlocke]

oh

[wtf]

16 hours ago, dimreepr said:

sentience is an emergent property you can't program for that.

I don't find emergence to be a helpful concept. Suppose consciousness is emergent. What did you just explain to me? Nothing at all. I still don't know what it emerges from. A particular configuration of molecules? Or must they be organic molecules, ie living things? Could sentience emerge from a digital computer? Emergence is a magic word that makes people think they understand something when they've actually understood nothing. If sentience is an emergent property, what does it emerge from and what doesn't it emerge from? Could it emerge from the 100 million lines of code making up Microsoft Windows? Could it emerge from the global supply chain? How about Skynet? Could it emerge from a video game? Could it emerge from the code running Ms. Pacman? In which case did I murder a sentient being every time I ran out of quarters back in the day when I played video games in bars?

Emergence sheds no light whatsoever on any of these questions.

Edited April 18, 2019 by wtf

[iNow]

9 hours ago, wtf said:

Emergence sheds no light whatsoever on any of these questions.

And yet such a conclusion may very well remain valid. Perhaps it is accurate to describe it as an emergent phenomenon, even if doing so doesn't illuminate other issues for you. 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Perhaps it is accurate to describe it as an emergent phenomenon, even if doing so doesn't illuminate other issues for you.

fair point.

[wtf]

8 hours ago, iNow said:

And yet such a conclusion may very well remain valid. Perhaps it is accurate to describe it as an emergent phenomenon, even if doing so doesn't illuminate other issues for you. 

Perhaps, to help me understand, you can explain what issues it illuminates for you.

Let us stipulate that "consciousness is an emergent phenomenon." For sake of this conversation I accept that proposition.

Can you tell me:

* What does it emerge from? 

* Must it emerge from something living? Or may it possibly emerge from particular arrangements of inanimate objects?

* If so, might it emerge from particular arrangements of rocks? How about electrical circuits? What is the difference? 

* If, as we are told, consciousness is a computation; then by the laws of computation it computes the same thing whether it is made of computer circuits or dominoes. (Google the domino computer).

* If we implement an AI in a computer made of dominoes, as can perfectly well be done, can consciousness emerge from such an apparatus?

* Do you think consciousness can emerge from Microsoft Windows, which I believe consists of around 100 million lines o code?

* Do you think consciousness can emerge from the global supply chain? The network of computers and logistics systems that manage all the ships and planes and manufacturing facilities that get raw materials from one country to component factories in another to assembly facilities in a third and to the retail shelves in a fourth? The global supply chain is by far the most complex system we have, far more inscrutable and unknowable than the fanciest AI. People just don't think about it because we don't think about how stuff gets to retail outlets. But it's pretty complicated. 

Now my point isn't only to stimulate discussion about these questions and others like them. My point is that saying, "Consciousness is an emergent property," does not give me a clue about how to answer ANY of them. It tells me nothing. That is my point.

But you say it tells you something. If you can explain this to me it will help me very much in understanding why SO MANY seemingly reasonable people say that "Consciousness is an emergent property" is meaningful to them. I hear this a lot. I just don't understand it.

 

 

 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, wtf said:

Can you tell me:

* What does it emerge from? 

The underlying chemistry activating electrical impulses across a neurobiological substrate 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

Must it emerge from something living? Or may it possibly emerge from particular arrangements of inanimate objects?

I suspect living is too ambiguous of a term to help us much here. I don’t see life as prerequisite, though. No.  It very possibly could (and IMO likely does) emerge from that which we’d today describe as inanimate. 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

If so, might it emerge from particular arrangements of rocks? How about electrical circuits? What is the difference? 

I suppose it might, but rocks seem less likely since their chemistry is less fluid and any electrical currents through then tend to be external (as opposed to internally generated). 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

If, as we are told, consciousness is a computation; then by the laws of computation it computes the same thing whether it is made of computer circuits or dominoes. (Google the domino computer).

I don’t know who told you that, but they never told me. Also, it seems to me that this very much hinges on what you mean by “computation,” and further on how universal these quote unquote “laws of computation” actually are.  

As we struggle to even define consciousness in a consistent meaningful way, it seems presumptuous and myopic to make any bold claims about whether computer or dominoes express it 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

If we implement an AI in a computer made of dominoes, as can perfectly well be done, can consciousness emerge from such an apparatus?

I’m inclined toward yes, but once again this very much depends on your definition of consciousness. 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

* Do you think consciousness can emerge from the global supply chain? The network of computers and logistics systems that manage all the ships and planes and manufacturing facilities that get raw materials from one country to component factories in another to assembly facilities in a third and to the retail shelves in a fourth

Thanks, chief. I know what a global supply chain is and how they function. What I don’t know is what you mean by consciousness. The answer to your questions is contingent on that, and that alone. 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

My point is that saying, "Consciousness is an emergent property," does not give me a clue about how to answer ANY of them. It tells me nothing. That is my point.

If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’s not the fish that’s best described as stupid. 

4 hours ago, wtf said:

If you can explain this to me it will help me very much in understanding why SO MANY seemingly reasonable people say that "Consciousness is an emergent property" is meaningful to them. I hear this a lot. I just don't understand it.

I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you. Think of the northern lights. They’re an emergent phenomenon of the way particles from the sun interact with our magnetic field and atmosphere. Consciousness appears to follow the same structure. It’s beautiful. It’s profound. It’s also just an emergent phenomenon stemming from more basic interactions themselves more simply described. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by iNow

[wtf]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Long day. Looking at your long list of questions feels repulsive. Perhaps you can choose your most important one and we start there? 

NO THAT IS NOT THE POINT!! THAT IS NOT THE POINT!! I"M NOT RAISING THE QUESTIONS TO ASK THEM. 

I'm pointing out simply that:

1) if I have those questions in front of me; and

2) I fully embrace and accept the statement that "Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon," 

THEN I have NO MORE INFORMATION NOW as to what the answers are, than I had before accepting the statement in (2).

That's my point. Yes these are great thought questions. But I do not care about them right now. I am pointing out that if I assume that "Consciousness is emergent" or I DON'T assume that; it makes no difference in helping me answer those questions.

The statement: "Consciousness is emergent" conveys no information. This is my point.

I know I posed some good thought questions. I'd be frustrated if people started answering them! I am laser focused on the concept of emergence. My thesis is that it doesn't mean anything, in the sense that it adds no new information to discussions of consciousness.

So if you have a thought or two on the questions, please throw me a bone and try to explain to me why anyone thinks "emergence" actually conveys any new information.

Edited April 19, 2019 by wtf

[iNow]

Define consciousness then (maybe without so many all caps and exclamation points)

[wtf]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you. Think of the northern lights. They’re an emergent phenomenon of the way particles from the sun interact with our magnetic field and atmosphere. Consciousness appears to follow the same structure. It’s beautiful. It’s profound. It’s also just an emergent phenomenon stemming from more basic interactions themselves more simply described. 

If you tell me the northern lights are emergent I don't know anything about them that I didn't know before ... until you add information.

If you're going to tell me something is emergent, you have to tell me HOW it's emergent. And in this case you did. You said: "the way particles from the sun interact with our magnetic field and atmosphere." Ok! An atmospheric scientist could probably drill that down to the molecule for me; and then a physicist could drill it down to the quarks, the way Feynman explained how light interacts with matter.

But with consciousness, you have told me no such thing. You do NOT have ANY theory of the mechanism by which consciousness "emerges" from .... actually you didn't tell me what it emerges from! The brain, the body, a bunch of circuits ... you have not told me. 

So your claim that consciousness is emergent is missing two things:

1) What does it emerge from? And

2) How.

 

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Define consciousness then (maybe without so many all caps and exclamation points)

Now that's funny. You are defending the thesis that consciousness is an emergent property (of something, you haven't said what). And now you want ME to define consciousness for you. Surely you must have a definition in mind yourself, in order to make such a definitive pronouncement with such certainty that "consciousness is an emergent property."

I had to use caps because it was vital for me to communicate that I am much less interested in the answers to those questions; than I am in the fact that the idea of "emergence" doesn't help me answer them. I'm attacking the concept of emergence. I honestly do not believe in it. I have read about it. I don't find the idea compelling. It gives a name to something but imparts no understanding.

I hope you took to heart my example of the northern lights. You told me it was emergent. You then told me WHAT it was emergent from; and you even told me HOW that emergence takes place. You have not done those two things with consciousness.

Edited April 19, 2019 by wtf

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, wtf said:

But with consciousness, you have told me no such thing. You do NOT have ANY theory of the mechanism by which consciousness "emerges" from .... actually you didn't tell me what it emerges from! The brain, the body, a bunch of circuits ... you have not told me. 

How basic do you need me to go? What level is your current understanding of neuroscience?

10 minutes ago, wtf said:

Now that's funny. You are defending the thesis that consciousness is an emergent property (of something, you haven't said what

Perhaps you missed it. It was my very first response to your very first question. 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

The underlying chemistry activating electrical impulses across a neurobiological substrate 

 

[FreeWill]

On 4/17/2019 at 6:44 PM, peterwlocke said:

BIG DATA 

what is this plz explain?

Recognizable information about Reality.

On 4/17/2019 at 4:37 AM, wtf said:

What can "objectively sentient" mean? Is your next door neighbor objectively sentient? How do you know?

The recognition and the reaction on a scenario which is aligned with the recognition and reaction of the general population (i.e killing another human being is bad) 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, FreeWill said:

The recognition and the reaction on a scenario which is aligned with the recognition and reaction of the general population (i.e killing another human being is bad) 

Are you suggesting we know something is sentient if they follow social norms and mores? That seems to be a tenuous claim, if so.

[StringJunky]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

Are you suggesting we know something is sentient if they follow social norms and mores? That seems to be a tenuous claim, if so.

I think that If something passes all known tests of sentience, then it follows that it is sentient until such a time comes that a another test shows that it isn't.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I think that If something passes all known tests of sentience, then it follows that it is sentient until such a time comes that a another test shows that it isn't.

Agreed. I just don't see ability to interact with social norms as sufficient to pass Turing.

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

Agreed. I just don't see ability to interact with social norms as sufficient to pass Turing.

I agree.

[FreeWill]

13 hours ago, iNow said:

Agreed. I just don't see ability to interact with social norms as sufficient to pass Turing.

Yet. The pontential is there

The Internet of Things can give sentience and the right programming ( social norms based information structure and evaluation) the right reactions. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by FreeWill

[Hrvoje1]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 4:50 AM, wtf said:

whatever consciousness is

Hey wtf, here are some attempts to answer the question:

Mathematical Foundations of Consciousness

AXIOMS AND TESTS FOR MINIMAL CONSCIOUSNESS

What do you think about them?