Pride vs Humility

[Michael McMahon]

I'm no expert but I seem to think it's good that everyone is different. In a collective sense there can be a synergy gained. Some people are refreshingly humble and others perhaps display a more prideful ambitiousness. Humility might serve to make one more understanding. But the sensation of pride can reward us for being cooperative and achieving our objectives. Obviously rudeness or condescension is never acceptable but that's a very different issue. So I don't quite agree with this idea of false humility as I suppose it's the thought that counts. People can change depending on the context. I don't think there can be a perfect type of personality. What do you think?

[Phi for All]

Diverse skills, personalities, needs, preferences, and abilities amongst a population help keep it vibrant, so you're right, it's fantastic that everyone is different. In fact, I'd argue that trying to set ideals on any aspect of human societies is going to limit us. Why should everyone like the same things? Why should being a banker be better than being a baker or biologist? 

I'd say the differences you're pointing out stem from the intentions involved. It's not good to make someone feel like crap, but there's a difference between trying to humble someone who has too much pride, and trying to humiliate that same person (the dictionary may disagree). Is the intention to help or harm?

Or perhaps humility is a personal perception, the same as pride, and something you need to be straight with yourself on, rather than worrying about what others think. Pride is a motivator and a deadly sin at the same time, like wrath, envy, sloth, greed, lust, and gluttony. Abuse them at your peril.

[Michael McMahon]

Well lets take one instance of pride: being overfamiliar to others. I don't necessarily think it's rude to be too friendly in being a bit presumptuous. If someone is requesting too much of your time, for example, the onus is on you to be assertive and politely say no. 

[Michael McMahon]

https://www.aconsciousrethink.com/4920/7-reasons-wary-overly-nice-people/

In relation to the issue of forwardness, I don't know what this author is trying to say. Should we prefer avowedly evil people instead? I suppose it might be necessary to express anger under certain circumstances. But in other contexts if someone opts not to scapegoat you and is always nice; I'd tend to view that positively.

[Michael McMahon]

Pride and humility don’t have to contradict each other in the sense that one can also be proud of other people they meet in life. You don’t necessarily have to be proud of only yourself. There can sometimes perhaps be benefit in living vicariously.

https://www.live-adventurously.com/why-live-vicariously/

There’s nothing wrong with being proud of your own country for instance. But a slight collective and general humility among its citizens could promote tolerance and appreciation for other cultures.

https://medium.com/@wesodonnell/patriotism-vs-nationalism-whats-the-difference-5e23db662a3

Even if someone finds a particular person tiring they could still welcome them in small doses! There’s no limit on how many friends or acquaintances one can have.

[dimreepr]

May I suggest a better title, Pride and Prejudice... 😆 

[Michael McMahon]

“Their meanings were slightly different at the time Austen was writing. Pride or being proud was usually not a positive trait. Whereas today people tend to speak of being proud of hard work or some sort of accomplishment, in Austen’s time, being proud usually meant someone thought he or she was better than other people or was not open to interacting with different kinds of people. Prejudice tended to mean having a set idea about someone that was based on assumptions or preconceptions, rather than a person’s actual actions and characters. Today, prejudice may mean making judgments about someone based on, for example, their race or religion. But in Austen’s time, prejudice was usually more about basing judgments on reputation, gossip, or misunderstood actions.”

-sparknotes 

Yes I agree that occasionally people can read too much into it. Pride and humility are very blunt and imprecise adjectives. An individual can be very proud about one accomplishment and extremely humble about another area in their life. So we shouldn’t divide the world’s population in terms of these traits.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

“Their meanings were slightly different at the time Austen was writing. Pride or being proud was usually not a positive trait. Whereas today people tend to speak of being proud of hard work or some sort of accomplishment, in Austen’s time, being proud usually meant someone thought he or she was better than other people or was not open to interacting with different kinds of people. Prejudice tended to mean having a set idea about someone that was based on assumptions or preconceptions, rather than a person’s actual actions and characters. Today, prejudice may mean making judgments about someone based on, for example, their race or religion. But in Austen’s time, prejudice was usually more about basing judgments on reputation, gossip, or misunderstood actions.”

-sparknotes 

Yes I agree that occasionally people can read too much into it. Pride and humility are very blunt and imprecise adjectives. An individual can be very proud about one accomplishment and extremely humble about another area in their life. So we shouldn’t divide the world’s population in terms of these traits.

Rito...

 

[MSC]

On 5/16/2019 at 3:59 PM, Michael McMahon said:

I'm no expert but I seem to think it's good that everyone is different. In a collective sense there can be a synergy gained.

Increased odds of survival too. I'd argue that human success as an organism is due in no small part to our ability to adapt, respect and value differences in thought, action and character. 

On 5/16/2019 at 6:09 PM, Phi for All said:

I'd argue that trying to set ideals on any aspect of human societies is going to limit us. Why should everyone like the same things? Why should being a banker be better than being a baker or biologist?

Is cultivating diversity over strict conformity not an ideal? Setting ideals is acceptable to me, so long as we are willing to change when any aspect of human societies is or becomes maladaptive to our continued survival, flourishing and well-being. Having an ideal is one thing, the modal quality of the actions we take in order to reach that ideal is where we should really focus our efforts. That does not mean we should not scrutinise every ideals in terms of practically, logistics and possibility. 

I'm glad you brought up harm; a banker can harm, a baker can harm, a biologist can harm. However this is more down to an individuals moral psychology/moral intent than there being anything inherently wrong with those occupations. 

 

[Michael McMahon]

“For pride to work, it must be paired with humility — a humility to know that no matter our skill set, each of us depends on what others have to offer. Since none of us can be an expert in all areas, we must be humble enough to recognize that we cannot be great at everything; there will be times when we need to rely on others. People who follow this advice are the ones for whom pride, like gratitude and compassion, becomes a virtue, not a vice.”

https://ideas.ted.com/pride-can-be-a-virtue-but-it-needs-to-be-the-right-kind-of-pride/amp/

 

I sometimes view the words pride and humility to be like a qualifier phrase. So whether pride and humility are virtues or vices would depend on what exactly it is that you’re being proud or humble about. If someone is proud about an evil crime, then pride is obviously a vice in that instance. But I notice the odd time in movies that to make a villain more relatable they endow the character with a sort of nihilistic edge; as if the character had a distorted and warped version of humility. Overall I think it’s good and encouraging to be humble and occasionally it can be acceptable to be proud about something or other.

“Qualifiers and intensifiers are words or phrases that are added to another word to modify its meaning, either by limiting it (He was somewhat busy) or by enhancing it (The dog was very cute).”

-writingcenter.unc.edu

 

“There’s millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars and we’re a speck on one. That’s us; lost in space. A cop, you, me: who notices?”

Tom Cruise justifies his job as a hitman by way of nihilistic apathy in the movie “Collateral”.

[dimreepr]

I think pride is muddying the water's here, humility-vs-arrogance is more relevant.

It's easier to see the virtue of being humble, when faced with a 'white van man'. But as Phi eluded too it's also easy to seek revenge on such people, rather than trying enlighten them to the benifit's of accepting one's limitation's; humility does not equal humiliation.

Humiliation often leads to vengeful retaliation, rather than understanding.

[Michael McMahon]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:35 PM, dimreepr said:

It's easier to see the virtue of being humble, when faced with a 'white van man'.

Yes that’s certainly true. Being grateful and humble is indeed virtuous.

 

On 3/2/2021 at 3:35 PM, dimreepr said:

as Phi eluded too

I suppose an example of what a little bit of arrogance might be is if someone were to correct your sentence online by saying “as Phi alluded to”! (joke)

 

On 3/2/2021 at 3:35 PM, dimreepr said:

benifit's of accepting one's limitation's

One way we are limited is that we can’t always control the outcome of a particular course of action. We sometimes have to be adaptable in order to update and revise our plans if anything goes wrong or to retry something we failed at. Patience can be challenging sometimes. The ends don’t always justify the means! So perhaps we have to somehow try to balance a process oriented approach in the present moment with those general goals that we’re trying to achieve in the long-term.

“A process person finds the joy in the journey, not the destination for example. A process person also emphasizes the importance of the discernment or discussion over the outcome... An outcome person tends to focus on the destination instead of the journey. An outcome person emphasizes the final decision as more important than the steps taken to achieve the outcome decision.”

-igrc

[dimreepr]

15 hours ago, Michael McMahon said:

One way we are limited is that we can’t always control the outcome of a particular course of action. We sometimes have to be adaptable in order to update and revise our plans if anything goes wrong or to retry something we failed at. Patience can be challenging sometimes. The ends don’t always justify the means! So perhaps we have to somehow try to balance a process oriented approach in the present moment with those general goals that we’re trying to achieve in the long-term.

“A process person finds the joy in the journey, not the destination for example. A process person also emphasizes the importance of the discernment or discussion over the outcome... An outcome person tends to focus on the destination instead of the journey. An outcome person emphasizes the final decision as more important than the steps taken to achieve the outcome decision.”

-igrc

This analogy, like all, is only superficially correct (like joy is the wrong word); it's confusing and can hinder understanding.

For instance, those who don't enjoy the journey can feel like they've been disqualified from the game of life; while they're perfectly comfortable with the game of planning. If one is content with the plan, it's only mildly uncomfortable when the plan doesn't come together, another plan will be along any time soon.

A person that can be content with now, is more likely to find enjoyment in the moment

 

 

16 hours ago, Michael McMahon said:

“A process person finds the joy in the journey, not the destination for example. A process person also emphasizes the importance of the discernment or discussion over the outcome... An outcome person tends to focus on the destination instead of the journey. An outcome person emphasizes the final decision as more important than the steps taken to achieve the outcome decision.”

-igrc

I planned to enjoy this journey, but I'm cold and wet and tired and my feet are really hurting and I've just soiled myself and I haven't eaten for three day's; therefore I'm way to miserable to even crack a smile, when my mate fell face first into a pile of shit; normally I'd piss myself laughing.

[Michael McMahon]

On 3/13/2021 at 1:08 PM, dimreepr said:

This analogy, like all, is only superficially correct (like joy is the wrong word); it's confusing and can hinder understanding.

For instance, those who don't enjoy the journey can feel like they've been disqualified from the game of life; while they're perfectly comfortable with the game of planning.

 

When you think of a growth mindset, it takes some amount of humility and self-criticism to accept that you're not at the level you want and that you need to improve. Then again it also takes a small bit of pride to want to be better in the future. So there can be both pride and humility in some of our goals.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Michael McMahon

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, Michael McMahon said:

 

When you think of a growth mindset, it takes some amount of humility and self-criticism to accept that you're not at the level you want and that you need to improve. Then again it also takes a small bit of pride to want to be better in the future. So there can be both pride and humility in some of our goals.

Pride is a path to arrogance, humility is a way to avoid it and growth is what we do when we're growing up.

What if my goal is, to sit still and think about stuff and if I'm already kind, why do I need to improve?

[Peterkin]

On 5/16/2019 at 4:59 PM, Michael McMahon said:

Some people are refreshingly humble and others perhaps display a more prideful ambitiousness. Humility might serve to make one more understanding.

 

On 5/16/2019 at 4:59 PM, Michael McMahon said:

People can change depending on the context

Exactly! Sometimes a single person is humble and proud only a few minutes apart. An footballer when he has scored a goal is proud, but humble three minutes later when he suffers an injury and needs the medics. These states of mind are not originally character traits, but can become habitual. That same footballer, when he's scored a lot of goals and suffered very few injuries, has been praised and rewarded, celebrated and applauded for a few years, start thinking that he's special, better than other men; that he has prerogatives and immunities that other men do not have.

Which state of mind becomes so habitual as to be perceived as characteristic of someone depends on three factors: innate attributes (health, talent, intelligence, beauty, charm) early childhood influences (whether they're spoiled, encouraged, disciplined or browbeaten)  and the culture in which they grow up (what traits and behaviours it rewards; what abilities and attitudes it values, what opportunities it provides.)

On 5/16/2019 at 4:59 PM, Michael McMahon said:

So I don't quite agree with this idea of false humility as I suppose it's the thought that counts.

That's entirely cultural. If it is false, it's being shown because the society claims to value one thing but actually values another (like young athletes being lectured on sportsmanship and fair play - but being rewarded only if they win - by whatever means). In some cultures, the pretence of Christian values is superficial; everybody know it's just moralistic  varnish on a deeply competitive, triumphalist mind-set that values individual achievement - victory, success -  above all else. Other cultures have a deeply embedded intolerance of personal pride and do not allow the celebration of outstanding individuals: a show of superiority or self-aggrandizement would be socially unacceptable.

On 5/16/2019 at 4:59 PM, Michael McMahon said:

I don't think there can be a perfect type of personality. What do you think?

People learn to behave - and to a very large extent, feel - as their society demands.  

On 3/2/2021 at 9:12 AM, Michael McMahon said:

So whether pride and humility are virtues or vices would depend on what exactly it is that you’re being proud or humble about.

The very fact of calling states of mind - states of mind made up of normal, healthy, universal emotions - 'vice' and 'virtue' exhibits that a cultural value system being applied. 

These are dog-whistle words, indicating what a person is expected to feel, not what is appropriate and natural for that person to feel.

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 

Exactly! Sometimes a single person is humble and proud only a few minutes apart. An footballer when he has scored a goal is proud, but humble three minutes later when he suffers an injury and needs the medics. These states of mind are not originally character traits, but can become habitual. That same footballer, when he's scored a lot of goals and suffered very few injuries, has been praised and rewarded, celebrated and applauded for a few years, start thinking that he's special, better than other men; that he has prerogatives and immunities that other men do not have.

Which state of mind becomes so habitual as to be perceived as characteristic of someone depends on three factors: innate attributes (health, talent, intelligence, beauty, charm) early childhood influences (whether they're spoiled, encouraged, disciplined or browbeaten)  and the culture in which they grow up (what traits and behaviours it rewards; what abilities and attitudes it values, what opportunities it provides.)

That's entirely cultural. If it is false, it's being shown because the society claims to value one thing but actually values another (like young athletes being lectured on sportsmanship and fair play - but being rewarded only if they win - by whatever means). In some cultures, the pretence of Christian values is superficial; everybody know it's just moralistic  varnish on a deeply competitive, triumphalist mind-set that values individual achievement - victory, success -  above all else. Other cultures have a deeply embedded intolerance of personal pride and do not allow the celebration of outstanding individuals: a show of superiority or self-aggrandizement would be socially unacceptable.

People learn to behave - and to a very large extent, feel - as their society demands.  

The very fact of calling states of mind - states of mind made up of normal, healthy, universal emotions - 'vice' and 'virtue' exhibits that a cultural value system being applied. 

These are dog-whistle words, indicating what a person is expected to feel, not what is appropriate and natural for that person to feel.

I don't know for sure, but I think we're on the same page...

[Peterkin]

18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I don't know for sure, but I think we're on the same page...

Cool! Let's not jeopardize it by being too proud!

[beecee]

On 5/17/2019 at 9:09 AM, Phi for All said:

Or perhaps humility is a personal perception, the same as pride, and something you need to be straight with yourself on, rather than worrying about what others think. Pride is a motivator and a deadly sin at the same time, like wrath, envy, sloth, greed, lust, and gluttony. Abuse them at your peril.

Ahha! the seven deadly sins I recall from my chrisitian teachings! The exact opposite to the seven virtues, of chastity, charity, prudence, justice, temperence, kindness, and humility.

 

 

[Michael McMahon]

On 12/8/2021 at 2:49 PM, dimreepr said:

Pride is a path to arrogance, humility is a way to avoid it and growth is what we do when we're growing up.

 

One problem is that humility has a subjective component. For example each religion interprets the spiritual quality of humility in a slightly different way. Humility also changed over the centuries where gender roles have become more egalitarian. Humility is almost a postmodern concept in how rebelliousness can be viewed as humility as it is in the rap genre.

[dimreepr]

25 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

 

One problem is that humility has a subjective component. For example each religion interprets the spiritual quality of humility in a slightly different way. Humility also changed over the centuries where gender roles have become more egalitarian. Humility is almost a postmodern concept in how rebelliousness can be viewed as humility as it is in the rap genre.

Well I am certainly wiser than this man. It is only too likely that neither of us has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance. At any rate it seems that I am wiser than he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know. - Socrates (the famous post modeern rap artist)

Serenity, regularity, absence of vanity,Sincerity, simplicity, veracity, equanimity, Fixity, non-irritability, adaptability, Humility, tenacity, integrity, nobility, magnanimity, charity, generosity, purity. Practise daily these eighteen "ities" You will soon attain immortality. - Socrates

[mistermack]

10 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Practise daily these eighteen "ities" You will soon attain immortality. - Socrates

Didn't he die by forced poisoning? Maybe someone decided to use the scientific method to test his hypothesis.

[Peterkin]

45 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Didn't he [Socrates] die by forced poisoning? Maybe someone decided to use the scientific method to test his hypothesis.

It's one of the more ironic immortalities. Everyone remembers him for the mode of execution - not the conviction, the charge, the problem he posed to the contemporary elite of Athens. Only a few scholars remember him for the actual teaching, and that, only through Plato.   

[Ken Fabian]

Was that an expectation of actual immortality or the immortality of enduring recognition and/or fame past their own lifetimes? Leaving an enduring legacy seemed to count for something.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, Ken Fabian said:

Was that an expectation of actual immortality or the immortality of enduring recognition and/or fame past their own lifetimes? Leaving an enduring legacy seemed to count for something.

I don't think he was such a fool as to think he - and every man who heeded his advice - would actually keep on living, if only they were virtuous enough.