Suicide Prevention

[Michael McMahon]

On 9/12/2021 at 7:30 PM, StringJunky said:

I'm a 40 year+ on/off chronic depressive

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope it improves for you. 

 

On 9/12/2021 at 7:30 PM, StringJunky said:

If one becomes  inexplicably depressed , with no known current cognitive/emotional issues, either internal or external, that, would imo, probably point to a persistent endogenous or organic cause.

It might be possible to approach depression from a free will perspective. Evolution is deterministic so some things we find pleasurable like social relationships, food and shelter are all ingrained in our subconscious from the genetics of previous generations. However there might be a mismatch between what we personally want in life and what our ancestors would've wanted in their lives. Worldviews can change drastically through the millennia. Some people might feel more affinity for foreign cultural beliefs seeing as there are innumerably different ways to live your life. Therefore depression could be like a fail-safe mechanism that prevents us being biased by our sensations of rewards. Our rationality supercedes our emotions in depression where we must find ways to be cognitively relaxed without the influence of external happiness. Depression forces us to either strengthen our current mindset or else to change our personality. Depression can reassure us because if we're able to defeat the enemy within us then we'll be able to take on any challenge outside us.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Michael McMahon

[Doogles31731]

I can speak from personal experience on this matter because I was suicidaly depressed in my early 20s during my final year of my BVSc degree. I would say that I had not been coping socially over a period of years, and had been covering up my feelings of inadequacy with great difficulty.

Life was simply not making any sense to me. It wasn’t that I was a failure. I was dux of my Primary Shool and Central School, and passed my secondary education with Honours in every subject. I had earned School Swimming Colours for winning a couple of races at Melbourne Inter-High School Championships, and subsequently was awarded a sydney University ‘Blue’ for Australian Rules Football.

But one day when I was home on my own. I’d had enough and went to get my .22 rifle and actually took the first few steps to retrieve it and shoot myself. But then the mental picture of my mother coming home from work and finding my dead body, deterred me. I had empathy for the situation I would be forcing on her.

I couldn’t go to a doctor, because the procedure in the early 1950s was to put you in a mental asylum, and I could not think of a single person, including my parents, that I respected enough to share my problem.

I vaguely decided that I must had had a brain overload of some kind and decided to just lie on my bed as often as I could and consciously attempt to think of nothing. I did not read newspapers or books or listen to the radio or participate in discussions on anything. It seemed to help, but like Stringy-Junky, I had periods of depression on and off for decades.

I felt that I must have been lacking in some essential brain metabolite or something. My mother knew nothing about nutrition, and while I was away from home doing the Veterinary degree, the main food I could afford was fish and chips. Some years ago, I saw some references to folic acid and folinic acid and commenced taking 800 micrograms of the latter most days.

Bouts of depression have virtually disappeared to the point where at times I get the impression that I’m a pain-in-the-arse to some people.

I realize that there are many forms of depression and that mine was but one form, but if you are interested in folinic acid and depression, this 2022 review is up-to-date -- Lam et al (2022; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0753332221013287) in The potential use of folate and its derivatives in treating psychiatric disorders: A systematic review

[Michael McMahon]

16 hours ago, Doogles31731 said:

I can speak from personal experience on this matter because I was suicidally depressed in my early 20s during my final year of my BVSc degree.

Thank you for sharing that. It was very honest of you. That's terrible how you felt so bad. 

 

16 hours ago, Doogles31731 said:

It wasn’t that I was a failure.

Depression doesn't have to be about personal failure or social rejection. Perhaps it could concern a perceived failure or a simple failure to find a purpose to your day. Sometimes it might actually be the absurdity of success that could trigger depression. Accomplishing your life goals would mean that you'd have to find new life goals to allay the boredom. This is one reason why sports stars keep competing after their sport's retirement age. Sometimes it's the difficulty and pessimism of the challenge that paradoxically creates adrenaline and excitement. 

https://believeperform.com/life-after-sport-depression-in-retired-athletes/

 

16 hours ago, Doogles31731 said:

the procedure in the early 1950s was to put you in a mental asylum

That's the downside of involuntary admissions where it might deter a few people getting help if they feel like their freedom will be reduced. I understand that some patients might be unable to make a reasonable decision if they're suffering psychosis and so they might benefit from a mandatory stay at hospital. Although not all suicidal ideation is a result of psychosis. Sometimes it might occur simply due to mental pain. A patient with anxiety might not be so mentally impaired and irrational as to require coercion to get treatment. For instance outdoor activities during the day might be reduced under involuntary confinement which might be counterproductive for certain patients. 

 

16 hours ago, Doogles31731 said:

I could not think of a single person, including my parents, that I respected enough to share my problem.

That's a pity but thankfully most people are very receptive to the topic of mental illness these days.

 

17 hours ago, Doogles31731 said:

a brain overload of some kind

A lot of problems could be described like that where our problems overwhelm us!

 

17 hours ago, Doogles31731 said:

Some years ago, I saw some references to folic acid and folinic acid and commenced taking 800 micrograms of the latter most days.

Our nutrition can certainly affect our mood. If we overeat we might feel sluggish or if we're hungry then we might become inattentive. Dining can also be a social activity when we eat with others at the dinner table. Cooking can also be a great hobby and it can be rewarding to see other people enjoy what you prepared for them. I remember being at an outpatient facility where we each had one day of the week to cook everyone's food. Nutrition might not be the source of everyone's depression but if improving your diet works for you then that's obviously great.  

[Doogles31731]

Thanks for the sympathy Michael McMahon. Fortunately depression is now past history for me personally, but I sympathize with anyone suffering from 'The Black Dog'.

My main purpose in writing was to establish my credentials for saying anything about the subject, and more particularly to suggest a supplement that may act as a specific preventative of depression as a reason for suicide.

Folinic acid is available over the counter, relatively safe to take, cheap, and the results of the review I provided in my last post (2022 and up-to-date) suggest that "The most consistent finding association of oral levomefolic acid or 5-methylfolate with improvement in clinical outcomes in mental health conditions as mentioned above, especially in major depressive disorder (including postpartum and post-menopausal depression), schizophrenia, autism spectrum disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and bipolar affective disorder. Folate supplements were well tolerated." 

A search of Google Scholar under Folinic Acid Side Effects, produced papers dealing with its ability to counteract side effects of other drugs. 

 

 

[StringJunky]

40 minutes ago, Doogles31731 said:

Thanks for the sympathy Michael McMahon. Fortunately depression is now past history for me personally, but I sympathize with anyone suffering from 'The Black Dog'.

My main purpose in writing was to establish my credentials for saying anything about the subject, and more particularly to suggest a supplement that may act as a specific preventative of depression as a reason for suicide.

Folinic acid is available over the counter, relatively safe to take, cheap, and the results of the review I provided in my last post (2022 and up-to-date) suggest that "The most consistent finding association of oral levomefolic acid or 5-methylfolate with improvement in clinical outcomes in mental health conditions as mentioned above, especially in major depressive disorder (including postpartum and post-menopausal depression), schizophrenia, autism spectrum disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and bipolar affective disorder. Folate supplements were well tolerated." 

A search of Google Scholar under Folinic Acid Side Effects, produced papers dealing with its ability to counteract side effects of other drugs. 

 

 

Vit B complex for me. Folic acid is just the synthetic version of folinic acid. Vitamin D might help as well, especially for those where sunlight is at a premium in the winter.

[Doogles31731]

Thanks for that info StringyJunky.

Most vitamin B Complexes contain Folic Acid (B9), which, as far as I can glean, requires a gene labelled something like MTHFR to convert it into folinic acid, which again in turn, requires a degree of further methylation to be become active and to cross the blood-brain barrier. So B-Complex could be useful.

Obviously B-Complex is a start, but in my own case, I thought I would cover all bases by supplementing with the biological product next along from folic acid (folinic acid), just in case the enzyme produced by the MTHFR gene was not functioning properly.

I'm lucky in that my vitamin D is high without supplementation (70s), but I also believe that everybody should take steps to ensure that their vitamin D status is adequate, because of it's necessity for overall health status. I can elaborate if anyone is interested, but it's a bit off topic. 

 

[TheVat]

I get occasional visits from the black dog.  From personal experience, and observation, I would say vitamin D is a help (winters can be quite intense here, so the need is there).  B complex helps some - had a relative who found them very stabilizing of mood. (He had had alcohol issues, so I think B12 was particularly helpful in his case)  I also am impressed by the therapeutic value of humor (UK and Upside-down people feel free to add a "u"). 

I was recently listing funny moments from film/tv with an online group which was assembling a sort of antidepressant viewing regimen, everything from Buster Keaton and the Marx brothers, to Seinfeld and the Coen brothers.  What was interesting was how we all found that simple recollection, alone, was quite a mood elevator.  And it's often material that is quite silly (M Python, e.g.) and/or quite transgressive, that sticks in the mind and produces belly laughs.  One should not shy away from the low brow (Three Stooges, Abbot and Costello, e.g.) just because it lacks sophistication.  The monumental idiocy of Otto in "A Fish Called Wanda," or the campfire flatulence scene in "Blazing Saddles," often have powerful antidepressant qualities that witty repartee may lack.  I remember laughing insanely at Eric Idle's famous reply in MPatHG, when someone asks how he could tell Arthur was a king.  "He hasn't got s-t all over him."  

[Michael McMahon]

On 1/19/2022 at 2:51 AM, TheVat said:

I get occasional visits from the black dog.

The unconscious mind is the foundation of our conscious emotions. They're built on top of one another rather than being side by side. Therefore if the unconscious mind experiences conflicting emotions then the top layer of our conscious mind will sink with it. Even if our conscious mind is coherent, it still can't sustain itself without a clear bedrock. Perhaps depression is like an earthquake tremor coming from those metaphysical fissures in our unconscious existence.

[Michael McMahon]

"DIGNITAS procures the necessary medication for this, a lethal, fast-acting and completely painless barbiturate which is dissolved in ordinary drinking water. After taking it, the patient falls asleep within a few minutes, after which sleep passes peacefully and completely painlessly into death."

http://www.dignitas.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&lang=en

 

I'm not too sure if a particular type of death can be guaranteed to be painless. Without bringing up the dilemma of life after death there might be some kind of spiritual awareness when the mind separates from the brain during death. Both the fear in the hours before the process of euthanasia of what the anaesthetic will eventually lead to and also the risk of a lucid moment of awareness when the organs fail during sleep could all be worries with this form of death. Euthansia during sleep might feel like life-support being removed from a long-term comatose patient. Perhaps there might be a subjective element to it where some people may perceive one form of euthanasia to be less traumatic even though others could find it even more painful. Placebos and nocebos have a psychological effect and whether they work for death anxiety is unclear since by definition no one can survive to let us know. We all have different life experiences and unique fears which means the degree to which euthanasia is less painful than a typical suicide is not fully clear. It's theoretically possible that someone in shock could voluntarily hold their breath long enough to die even without external tools but whether that's feasible for a semi-conscious person on life support is uncertain given their neurological, instinctive fear of death. 

 

Definition: "The nocebo effect is the opposite of the placebo effect. It describes a situation where a negative outcome occurs due to a belief that the intervention will cause harm."

[Michael McMahon]

Capitalism works by voluntary reward for work rather than active punishment for underworking. It's true that poor people are to some extent passively penalised by a lack of resources but technically they're not deprived in a coercive fashion. In other words they're not being put in detention for a lack of homework but rather they miss out on opportunities due to a lack of wealth. At least that's the economic theory even if it's not the reality for those who are exploited in sweat shops in the third world. Anyway my point of comparison when it comes to suicide is that people are free to reward to their heart's content those who live with physical disabilities, terminally ill patients or mentally ill individuals who manage to avoid suicide. It's a free country and if you don't want to commemorate suicide victims then no one can stop you. However actively condemning suicide victims crosses the line in my opinion.

[MSC]

On 6/9/2022 at 7:07 PM, Michael McMahon said:

Capitalism works by voluntary reward for work rather than active punishment for underworking. It's true that poor people are to some extent passively penalised by a lack of resources but technically they're not deprived in a coercive fashion. In other words they're not being put in detention for a lack of homework but rather they miss out on opportunities due to a lack of wealth. At least that's the economic theory even if it's not the reality for those who are exploited in sweat shops in the third world. Anyway my point of comparison when it comes to suicide is that people are free to reward to their heart's content those who live with physical disabilities, terminally ill patients or mentally ill individuals who manage to avoid suicide. It's a free country and if you don't want to commemorate suicide victims then no one can stop you. However actively condemning suicide victims crosses the line in my opinion.

Agreed. Active compassion more consistently applied works wonders. 

I think so many suicides could could avoided if we could be more compassionate in our interactions with each other in general. I mean hell, reading the first page of this thread makes me more empathetic with others whom struggle with suicidal ideation. 

I feel a contributing factor, is an emotional death by a thousand cuts type situation. Few people with a callous lack of compassion intend to cause someone to commit suicide, but who knows if you're going to be the person dealing out the 1000th cut or the straw that breaks the camels back. 

On social media and other written forms of communication, the problem is made worse because a screen depersonalises and dehumanises people in a very literal way. Even if we are consciously aware that we are in fact speaking to another human being, subconsciously we are aware that we seem to just be typing inputs into a screen. Which lowers a lot of inhibitions. The sort of interactions people have on social media, are often times very different than the interactions you will have in person and have a tendency to be much more harmful for your mental health, in their consistency to be brutal. 

I've actually spoken to a few mental health professionals about this, and even prior to the internet, one of the barriers to effective mental health treatment is how hostile our society can be to the mentally ill. Sometimes you feel like you might as well just have a physical open wound and that people might as well just poke their fingers into the wound whenever you speak. At least that way you'll actually have an infection instead of feeling like you have one and are being treated like you are one. 

Some might say it isn't our job to figure out how to communicate with the mentally ill. Yet most people here probably at least know someone whom is mentally ill and a few of us here most definitely are mentally ill. So it might not be most people's job, but I feel like there is a need for it to become a core life skill. 

I've had people tell me that I should not be on social media since it is bad for my mental health. It seems to me like it's bad for almost everyone's mental health, in how it makes us feel, what it makes us willing to say to each other and how it makes us choose to communicate with each other. 

I mean you don't even need to have a mental illness to feel like being on social media is emotionally demanding and trying. I'm sure for some it can straight up make people who weren't mentally ill before, mentally ill after enough of the typical shitty interactions we often get from it. Save the brutal honesty for the mentally ill whom are actually incarcerated for brutal crimes like rape, child abuse, murder etc. But even then, leave it to the professionals. If brutal honesty is like a scalpel and to be used to help someone, let's make sure it's just the professionals using it and not any Tom, Dick or Harry who happens to walk by. For those who take it seriously enough, to be worried about making it worse if they say the wrong thing, start and finish the interaction with consistent compassion and empathy. Don't give advice, don't tell them to seek mental health treatment. Ask them if they have thought about mental health treatment. Find out if there are some kind of barriers to them gaining treatment. If there are, share information about charities that can help. If they are willing to be vulnerable with you, be willing to be vulnerable with them back. 

This advice does help. This is what I did when my friend B, (Just the first initial, respecting their privacy) a schizophrenic, was having an episode and was getting quite aggressive and had completely disassociated with who she was at that time. At that point, this is where being willing to be vulnerable calmed her down... don't do that with a sadist though. Never be vulnerable to a sadist. Dont show fear, act like you enjoy it, this riles them up and confuses them, it makes them sloppy, you attack quickly and decisively when they make a mistake, gtfo and call the police. 

If there is ever a time when you feel suicidal or just want a compassionate conversation about whatever the hell you want; message me. This applies to everyone. The least I can be for people, is someone who doesn't want you to be gone from this world. So don't hesitate to get in touch.

 

[Existential Dreams]

I can see this from a few angles ,

I lost my Stepdad to suicide nearly 12 years ago 

I have tried Ending my life a few times And have multiple mental health conditions  

I now wish to live And try to deal with my mental health issues every day And also help others 

people being negative towards people who try to end their lives  will only make matters worse  will make them feel why are they here , no one loves me ,  etc 

Being Neutral and being informing to people who are trying to end their  lives , what every condition  tell them things  that can help like CBT  . Or therapy , how to deal with triggers and upset , tools to help them ground themselves etc  giving them the tools to keep going and to deal with what is going on  in their heads   like therapy, Medication , Things to avoid feeling so bad  and keeping as busy as you can and call a helpline or asking for  help   get a support worker etc 

 

 now because i have the tools to deal with how i feel  i can use the tools But you have to want to use the tools to help yourself  if you dont use the tools things will go backwards and i see my Psych every Three months just to check in , i still have a long way to go * i cant go out the house on my own due to my anxiety and OCD at the moment or even go on a bus for  very long  but i am working on it with my support workers  and be on my own is very upsetting for me *

 

 

 

 

[Michael McMahon]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:41 AM, Existential Dreams said:

I lost my Stepdad to suicide nearly 12 years ago 

I have tried Ending my life a few times And have multiple mental health conditions  

I'm upset that you've experienced such distress. I'm sad to hear about the death of your stepdad.

 

On 7/24/2022 at 10:41 AM, Existential Dreams said:

I now wish to live And try to deal with my mental health issues every day And also help others 

That's a great attitude to have; very inspiring.

 

On 7/24/2022 at 10:41 AM, Existential Dreams said:

people being negative towards people who try to end their lives  will only make matters worse  will make them feel why are they here , no one loves me ,  etc 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sometimes I feel a need to engage in realpolitik with those who are critical of suicide. Suicidal people need help and so I don't want to reject those with mixed feelings about suicidal patients. In other words I support the existence of the mental health system where suicide isn't ignored. I suppose it's like the way bad publicity can be better than no publicity. That is to say even if staff are unsupportive of suicide they'll at the very least be supportive of your mental health. I also think of poorer countries where the mental health system must compete with lots of government departments for limited resources. Nonetheless there might be rare occasions where the help is outweighed by negativity if it comes at a cost of stigmatising suicide victims. So debating the topic of suicide can be a bit of a balancing act between asserting your point of view and tolerating those who disagree with you.

 

On 7/24/2022 at 10:41 AM, Existential Dreams said:

i cant go out the house on my own due to my anxiety and OCD at the moment or even go on a bus for  very long  but i am working on it with my support workers  and be on my own is very upsetting for me

I wish I could offer you better advice but I suppose it's best that I leave that to your friends and caregivers who know more about your circumstances. Nonetheless thank you for sharing your story.

 

 

 

On 6/19/2022 at 7:24 AM, MSC said:

Few people with a callous lack of compassion intend to cause someone to commit suicide, but who knows if you're going to be the person dealing out the 1000th cut or the straw that breaks the camels back. 

Yes you phrased that very well. Often times there's a multitude of factors that go into someone's decision to die by suicide. While I certainly condemn bullying I still don't want to vilify any bully to the extent of being wholly responsible for the death of a suicide victim.

 

 

 

A complex maths question might create a small bit of stress and yet the simplicity of basic questions about our existence could create huge stress during mental illness. One way to think of it is that consciousness is holistic and so it's harder for the brain to work on the starting blocks rather than the abstractions. For example a lot of our personality is set by the time we reach adulthood but that doesn't mean it's impossible to transform yourself wholesale. Defying critical periods in our personal and spiritual growth is possible and merely entails a lot of pain.

"In developmental psychology and developmental biology, a critical period is a maturational stage in the lifespan of an organism during which the nervous system is especially sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. If, for some reason, the organism does not receive the appropriate stimulus during this "critical period" to learn a given skill or trait, it may be difficult, ultimately less successful, or even impossible, to develop certain associated functions later in life." wik

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Michael McMahon

[Michael McMahon]

A hidden factor when we apply stoic masculine ideals to withstanding suicide is that the preparation time mentally ill patients have is often nothing. People can become hysterically anxious out of nowhere. The problem when we apply this standard from soldiers in battle is that while they're extremely brave they're much better able to psyche themselves up. So they know in advance that they'll have to fight possibly to the death. This forces them to almost become immanent in whatever form of spirituality they had to give them strength. But lets take the analogy of physical torture. Technically soldiers who die in battle experience far more pain than those who recovered from torture. But we can all agree that torture as a punishment could be far more destabilising because it's performed out of the context of a fight to the death. So in my view suicidal thoughts can also be destabilising simply because patients don't know if they need to fight to the death or if they'll survive. A lot of people don't tell themselves that they might be depressed next year and that they'd have to really meditate beforehand to survive!

 

A risk factor when we use masculine phrases like "man up" is that some people aren't very resilient. This means you'd get away with this style of banter on an adventure holiday but not really with disadvantaged people. I agree that people can use masculine notions in a very well-intentioned way. Concepts like stoicism and solidarity can be very reassuring for males. Yet we don't want to exaggerate this too far. The culpability for criminality is similar for those from any background. Obviously I condemn crimes without discriminating on the perpetrators' personality type. Yet we do have to realise that some criminals can be insecure. So you don't want to distort someone's sense of self. No matter what virtues we ascribe to masculinity we must remember that it is the gender of every male. As such there's a very small risk that if you start implying that people aren't masculine to homeless or mentally ill people that a bad minority of them could start warping their own gender in a violent way. To reiterate I condemn all psychopathic and perverted criminals. I'm merely saying that we do need to be cautious about presenting social problems in an explicitly masculine way.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Michael McMahon said:

So they know in advance that they'll have to fight possibly to the death. This forces them to almost become immanent in whatever form of spirituality they had to give them strength. But lets take the analogy of physical torture. Technically soldiers who die in battle experience far more pain than those who recovered from torture. But we can all agree that torture as a punishment could be far more destabilising because it's performed out of the context of a fight to the death.

The fact that soldiers suffer from trauma and can clearly break in encounters does seem to imply that this "strength" is not immanent or lasting feature. Also I am not sure why you think folks agree with your premise regarding torture. Things are difficult to compare in the first place, as length and intensity are important factors. Someone subjected to controlled water boarding once (out of context of fight to the death), is far less likely to suffer from PTSD than someone in constant threat of death.

 

[Michael McMahon]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:29 PM, CharonY said:

The fact that soldiers suffer from trauma and can clearly break in encounters does seem to imply that this "strength" is not immanent or lasting feature.

 

Stoicism is a complex topic because masculinity is itself a form of hysteria! Thus people will be stoic in radically different ways. It might even be possible to be stoically effeminate given the vagueness and open-endedness of the definitions! Taking embarrassment like a man is the root of the paradox! Stoicism is a virtue but any virtue can be distorted. Could stoicism ever be so good as to be evil?! Death can be a very scary topic in spite of the copious amount of resources we have compared to historical generations. It's logically the case that no matter how worried or upset you are there'll have been millions of people who died before you. Yet this can be viewed in different ways. Should we gloat at the fact that we are but one of countless many who'll be killed? Here stoicism might seem a bit macho. Although trying to appreciate the fear of death in the context of others does seem charitable. There'll always be a subjective side to things!

Edited October 31, 2022 by Michael McMahon

[TheVat]

58 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:

Stoicism is a complex topic because masculinity is itself a form of hysteria! 

Given the tone of that sentence, I'm guessing you are very masculine.  

Anyway, let's maybe consider a precise definition of  masculine before we categorize it as a form of hysteria.  And a precise definition would call for some sort of metric to measure traits that are agreed upon masculine traits.  If we can even agree on what traits might be specific to men (aside from the obvious physical ones, like external genitalia, facial hair and heavier bone structure).  

[Michael McMahon]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:13 PM, TheVat said:

Anyway, let's maybe consider a precise definition of  masculine before we categorize it as a form of hysteria. 

 

A knowledge that men and women are equal with opposing strengths, along with a temporary or subconscious sense of masculine superiority?!

Edited November 1, 2022 by Michael McMahon

[Michael McMahon]

On 5/21/2019 at 10:38 PM, Phi for All said:

And I'm not advocating it for everyone, but I do think some people want to be told their thoughts of suicide are silly and transitory. So I'm loathe to remove that tool from a professional's bag.

 

The mental health system tends to be secular even though this can be inconsistent. A mentally ill person who is religious can request to leave the psychiatric ward to visit the church. Or sometimes there's a shrine or religious room elsewhere in the hospital. However the clergy often don't make direct visits to psychiatric wards. Psychiatrists might view this as a slippery slope where mental illnesses could make a patient gullible to non-medical treatment. However it's possible within a free society that depressed people could consent to religious treatment. The difficulty is that it's best to do so voluntarily given our freedom to pursue different faiths. A major problem with moral preaching is that mental health systems have many patients confined to the ward involuntarily. As such it could appear doubly dismissive to not only be confined against your free will but to also be morally criticised. For example it's true that criticism could help certain patients but then again they often aren't able to leave the ward if they disagree with the criticism. As such a blancing act can be very risky because staff and patients can be very diverse. For example some patients might not even get on well with other patients when everyone is stressed. So the patient's background might help staff determine the relevance of spiritual guidance.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Michael McMahon

[Agent Smith]

I know what the OP means by suicide prevention - taking one's own life is a (mental) illness. 

[Michael McMahon]

On 11/27/2022 at 8:14 PM, Agent Smith said:

I know what the OP means by suicide prevention - taking one's own life is a (mental) illness. 

 

I understand that it's perfectly acceptable that the sensation of a certain mental illness can make no sense to a lot of people. It might be useful to think of mental illness not only in terms of the uniqueness of the brain and the mind but also of regional culture. Some countries might be superior at resisting a particular mental illness precisely because they all focus on a shared mindset. British people might be skeptical of suicide simply because they all share a history of international militancy. Yet so many smaller countries cannot possibly hope to share the stoic mindset of a much larger country. When we think of chronic back pain then it's theoretically or hypothetically possible that Asians aren't as badly affected simply because they all have a specialised physique. Germans and eastern Europeans might not care less about depression when they've collectively had to deal with themes of extreme nihilism in their past. An analogy could be made with glasses where ancient people may never have been so frequently impaired due to the changes of eye demands from technology. Perhaps autism isn't as common in Islam when they all have such a transcendent faith. Thus understanding the factors that lead to suicide can be relative to the country rather than the specific diagnosis of a mental illness alone. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Michael McMahon

[Michael McMahon]

Anxiety could sound unrelatable when it's distinguished from common stress. Let's imagine the state enforced a minimum grade policy on every student to get a B in every exam. We can see how well-intentioned it would be when many students could afford to work harder. Yet other students could find some subjects so boring that the whole idea of getting lifetime B grades could lead to suicidal ideation. It's clear that studying can help your long-term goals at the expense of short-term goals. Academia is an elitist analogy but mental illness is a similar state of mind. It's simply that your unconscious mind forces you to solve a homework challenge no matter how long it takes or how incredibly hard you've to work for it. Just like older adults can remind children of the need of school so too can our subconscious inflict anxiety on us on a topic we might find boring and pointless. Mental illness is usually beyond our control where the unconscious mind takes desperate risks. No one could memorise a book like a computer and so if the brain is like a computer then we've idea what our upper limit is when we're in hysterical pain.

Pain is really just hard work even if it consciously feels like torture. Everyone is capable of working hard and so I'm not trying to downplay the hardship of pain. Yet it's immediately apparent that if everyone were suddenly enslaved and worked intensely hard then suicide among a few of them are inevitable. It's a very basic analogy but suicidal ideation is really just about perceived over-exertion.

[Michael McMahon]

Euthanasia would be problematic if suicidal women asked to be killed by men and vice versa!

[iNow]

Why does maleness and femaleness matter?

[Michael McMahon]

Anxiety isn't always visible in a brain scan. So a psychiatrist won't be able to say exactly when the symptoms would disappear. Yet there are elements of determinism in our cognition even if we believe we've a small degree of free will. As such a mental illness might end deterministically whenever the brain perceives an increased confidence level in the mental faculty that was impaired. Logical determinism rather than biological brain science alone could help reassure anxiety patients that they might recover dualistically. The trouble is we don't have a clear picture of how the brain works. Thus to say a mental illness doesn't fully exist is to say the patient's mind doesn't fully exist during the period that they report symptoms. Critics of suicide might be able to relate to natural evil where the physical world can accidentally inflict innumerable deaths and injuries. So even if you disapproved of suicide it's still possible to view suicide as a lesser evil to the natural evil of the unlimited human pain response. If we viewed the mind materialistically then suicide is technically an indirect form of natural evil if anyone were to subscribe to pure physicalist metaphysics. The human mind is often tempted by happiness to achieve their goals. However it's possible that the unconscious mind has the opposite desire where a mind in pain functions better in a neurological way. Thus the unconscious mind might be tempted to inflict as much pain as it can seeing as it's separate from the conscious mind. Pain would almost be like a lassaiz-faire form of mental efficiency where the short-term well-being of the mind is irrelevant to the far-sighted unconscious. Perhaps mental illness is almost like a pact with the devil when it comes to unconscious decision making. Thus we should encourage people to try their hardest not to engage in their own depressive thoughtlines while still sympathising with those who fall victim to their unconscious. Both good people and evil people have died of suicide. Thus mental illness could also be viewed as metaphysical warfare that prevents ambivalent evil people remaining evil at the expense of good people succumbing to the same illness and severity of pain as collateral damage. For example group evolution caters for a collective mindset of resilience when it comes to mental illnesses. In other words a mental illness might sound counter-productive for individualistic survival-of-the-fittest evolution but not for holistic theories of group evolution.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Michael McMahon