Can you move in space?

[Phi for All]

3 hours ago, MPMin said:

Doesn’t the combustion of a normal rocket occur internally? Please explain why this ‘internal to the system’ prevents momentum?

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Moderator Note

You seriously need to go back and read this thread over and over again until you pick up on how many times this has been answered so far in just two pages. It's frustrating in discussion when anything needs to be explained so many times. One is left with the feeling that you aren't reading what anybody else is writing. Please correct this or the thread will be closed.

 

[MPMin]

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

If you analyse the internals of a rocket (or other) there are many billions of forces or interactions. There are macroscopic parts pushing against each other (bolts, screws or other) and particles (electrons, protons, atoms ...) etc. The particles may have magnetic fields and momentum and there are forces governing their interaction. None of those internal forces, or any kind of sum or composition of such forces will have any impact on the momentum of the complete system. It doesn't matter if it is the force between an electron and the nucleus, the magnetic fields in a battery or between cables or if is molecules in a muscle moving an arm that throws a rock. Internal forces does not generate propulsion. Investors will not be interested.

To be clear, in the example of a combustion rocket, there first must be internal forces to generate the external forces that propel the rocket?

in other words, the external forces can not occur without the internal forces happening first? 

Is this correct? If so then I feel that I’m no explaining myself well enough

Edited July 7, 2019 by MPMin

[Strange]

1 minute ago, MPMin said:

To be clear, in the example of a rocket, there first must be internal forces to generate the external forces that propel the rocket?

in other swords the external forces can not occur without the internal forces happening first? 

Is this correct?

It is not clear what you mean by “internal forces”. For example, imagine using a semiconductor laser to generate the thrust. Are there any internal forces involved there?

[MPMin]

Sorry to answer your question with a question but are photons and magnetic fields interchangeable? Can a magnetic field be focused through a lens like photons?

[Ghideon]

9 hours ago, MPMin said:

Doesn’t the combustion of a normal rocket occur internally? Please explain why this ‘internal to the system’ prevents momentum?

 

44 minutes ago, MPMin said:

To be clear, in the example of a rocket, there first must be internal forces to generate the external forces that propel the rocket?

in other swords the external forces can not occur without the internal forces happening first? 

Is this correct?

Not clear what you mean but I'll try:
A rocket is at rest in our frame of reference in space:

 

The rocket starts the engine. It uses internal combustion of fuel. The combustion causes expansion of   hot gases. The expansion causes pressure in the engine resulting in forces that accelerate the gases in the only way possible; out to the left. The gases have momentum P. The force accelerating the gases causes a counterforce on the rocket. The rocket gains momentum P to the right. Center of mass of the complete system gases+rocket is not moved. Total momentum is conserved P-P=0. 

The rocket shuts down the engine and moves at constant speed in our frame of reference. Gasses continue to the left. The center of mass has not moved. Total momentum is conserved P-P=0 

 

Now we try to do an invention, let's put the rocket in a bubble and use a collector to gather the exhaust gases and use a machine to generate fuel from the vapour. Will the invention work? The combustion C is still internal in the rocket, exactly as above? The forces from the vapour will be the same, acting on the rocket? But as I have said a few times, conservation of momentum can't be beaten. The double will not move its center of mass. Now no mass can leave the system. The collector will have to stop the vapours. The forces required balances the momentum P of the gases. At best there will be some wobble while masses are moved around.  There will be a lot of internal stress on the components, none of those forces will have any impact on the center of mass of the complete system, the bubble, the rocket, the gasses in motion etc.

Note that if we instead of vapour use photons it does not matter. You can't beat conservation of momentum. 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ghideon
Image issues

[swansont]

19 minutes ago, MPMin said:

Sorry to answer your question with a question but are photons and magnetic fields interchangeable? Can a magnetic field be focused through a lens like photons?

Not interchangeable. Magnetic fields can’t be focused in that way.

[Strange]

22 minutes ago, MPMin said:

Sorry to answer your question with a question but are photons and magnetic fields interchangeable? Can a magnetic field be focused through a lens like photons?

You have talked about a "pulse of magnetism" and, as far as I know, there is not really any such thing. A changing (pulsed) magnetic (or electric) field will generate electromagnetic waves (aka light). This can either be described classically (as waves) or using quantum theory as quantised perturbations of the field (quanta, or photons in the case of light).

Practically, in this context, it makes no difference. Light waves carry momentum. So do photons. They re just two mathematical formalisms for describing the same thing.

[MPMin]

I get what you have all been saying, I think perhaps you haven’t been getting what I’m saying. I believe I’m not explaining myself well enough.

the system I’m proposing does not try to capture or reuse its own energy.

If I use the above explanation as a frame work to describe what I’m trying to explain in similar stages; then just as in the rocket example, consider the first magnetic pulse as the internal combustion, when that magnetic pulse reaches the other wire, the current in that wire acts as a counter force to the initial magnetic field pulse. Just like a rocket producing its own gases to push against I see the pulsing magnetic fields doing the same thing.

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, MPMin said:

f I use the above explanation as a frame work to describe what I’m trying to explain in similar stages; then just as in the rocket example, consider the first magnetic pulse as the internal combustion, when that magnetic pulse reaches the other wire, the current in that wire acts as a counter force to the initial magnetic field pulse. Just like a rocket producing its own gases to push against I see the pulsing magnetic fields doing the same thing.

It doesn't;t really matter what goes on internally, as long as it can cause an asymmetrical change in momentum.

I don't see how your system of two wires can do that. To show that it could, you would (I'm afraid) need to work through the mathematics.

I can imagine a system of three wires, with correctly phased pulses (or sine waves) could conceivably generate asymmetric electromagnetic radiation. But it would be incredibly inefficient (even if the wires were carefully designed coils, and there was a complex algorithm used to control them). Just use a laser!

[MPMin]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

I can imagine a system of three wires, with correctly phased pulses (or sine waves) could conceivably generate asymmetric electromagnetic radiation. But it would be incredibly inefficient (even if the wires were carefully designed coils, and there was a complex algorithm used to control them). Just use a laser!

The electronics to drive what I’m describing are incomprehensible to me. I can’t imagine being able to pulse a current for such a short period of time so as to allow a pulse (or wave if you will) of magnetic field, having said that though, consider that the cycle of pulsing a magnetic field would be so extremely short that potentially billions if not trillions of cycles could occur per second. 

Perhaps a drawing would help better describe what I’m trying to say? 

[iNow]

Just now, MPMin said:

Perhaps a drawing would help better describe what I’m trying to say? 

Doesn’t matter. The answers provided and repeated across the last 3 pages will continue to apply. 

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, MPMin said:

The electronics to drive what I’m describing are incomprehensible to me. I can’t imagine being able to pulse a current for such a short period of time so as to allow a pulse (or wave if you will) of magnetic field, having said that though, consider that the cycle of pulsing a magnetic field would be so extremely short that potentially billions if not trillions of cycles could occur per second. 

So you are proposing to generate electromagnetic pulses using a scheme that you don't understand and don't think is possible?

This raises the obvious question: why?

We have extremely efficient methods for converting electric power into directional electromagnetic radiation. (The word "laser" comes to mind, for some reason.) So why try and invent a new one, when you don't understand how or if it could work?

Quote

Perhaps a drawing would help better describe what I’m trying to say? 

I'm sure it would. But you might want to explain what the point is, first.

[Ghideon]

2 minutes ago, MPMin said:

The electronics to drive what I’m describing are incomprehensible to me. I can’t imagine being able to pulse a current for such a short period of time so as to allow a pulse (or wave if you will) of magnetic field, having said that though, consider that the cycle of pulsing a magnetic field would be so extremely short that potentially billions if not trillions of cycles could occur per second. 

Perhaps a drawing would help better describe what I’m trying to say? 

Maybe a drawing will show where the error is.

Photons leaving=propulsion, as in my rocket example. 
Photons sent between components inside system=no propulsion, as in my example with a rocket in a bubble. 

Or in other words: Any kind of device trying to capture some kind of stuff that wants to leave the thing you want to propel, will act as a break.

 

[MPMin]

9 minutes ago, Strange said:

We have extremely efficient methods for converting electric power into directional electromagnetic radiation. (The word "laser" comes to mind, for some reason.) So why try and invent a new one, when you don't understand how or if it could work?

Because I don’t think light has the same potential to move mass as magnets do?

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, MPMin said:

Because I don’t think light has the same potential to move mass as magnets do?

What is that based on?

[MPMin]

9 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Photons leaving=propulsion, as in my rocket example. 
Photons sent between components inside system=no propulsion, as in my example with a rocket in a bubble.

As I have tried to describe, consider the first magnetic pulse as the combustion, that magnetic pulse has been spent, the second pulse isn’t trying to capture the first magnetic pulse it’s simply pushing against it like continual combustion causes subsequent gases to push against the previous gases 

From what I’ve seen, light has a far smaller capacity to move mass compared to magnets, would you disagree?

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, MPMin said:

As I have tried to describe, consider the first magnetic pulse as the combustion, that magnetic pulse has been spent, the second pulse isn’t trying to capture the first magnetic pulse it’s simply pushing against it like continual combustion causes subsequent gases to push against the previous gases 

I certainly don't know how magnetic pulses would interact (if they even would). But I doubt that you can bounce them around like ping-pong balls.

You would need to show that:

1. Such a system can generate asymmetric magnetic pulses

2. That the pulses carry significant momentum 

3. That this is more efficient than existing electromagnetic (or even chemical) propulsion systems.

 

28 minutes ago, MPMin said:

I can’t imagine being able to pulse a current for such a short period of time so as to allow a pulse (or wave if you will) of magnetic field

How short do you need the pulse to be? It is practical to generate attosecond (10^-18 second) pulses: https://www.science.gov/topicpages/m/magnetic+pulse+generator

[MPMin]

Please forgive my lack of drawing ability, nothing is drawn to scale or magnitude it’s just to demonstrate the principal 

Ive done my best to draw the phases where as in actuality it would be a fluid cycle.

Ive included the possibility of reversing the cycle (below)  to utilise the other magnetic field but I don’t know if that would work but at least the first example of the cycle should work and would be repeatable many times per second.

I believe this could develop a lot more thrust than any photon or laser style propulsion 

[Ghideon]

7 hours ago, MPMin said:

I believe this could develop a lot more thrust than any photon or laser style propulsion 

No it will not.

Thanks for pictures, makes it easier to see the idea. It fails since you can't beat the conservation of momentum.

1: Ampère's_force_law Special_case: Two straight parallel wires, currents in wires makes them attract or repel. In this case there is a force F acting on the left cable, and an equal force F in the opposite direction acting on the right cable. If cables are mounted on a common rig the force is an internal stress on the rig. No propulsion will occur. But since current is switched of very fast this situation is not applicable, we look at the second case. 

2: Electromagnetic pulse, a transient electromagnetic disturbance*, is sent from right to left cable. The pulse will carry momentum. This is the same as throwing a rock from right to left. Countering the incoming pulse ("Catching the rock") with a second pulse from the left cable does not generate propulsion. Any propulsion generated will be from the pulses sent in any other directions, out from the system, like a rocket thrusting vapors into space. Sending pulses (or shifting matter) inside the system does not generate propulsion. 

To repeat, there is no way you can beat the law of conservation of momentum. And before you post next modification or new idea, there is no way you can beat the law of conservation of momentum. 

 

*) A more detailed wold have to be supplied by other members; I would need to read up on Maxwell and understand the type of energy (radiated, electric, magnetic or conducted) and maybe range of frequencies shape, duration and amplitude of waveform. Hopefully the simplified cases above are good enough.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Ghideon
grammar

[swansont]

Even if there were something to this pulsed current system, you have to realize that EM signals travel at c. if the wires are 30 cm apart, any field change will take 1 ns to get from one wire to the next.

So how do you turn the current on and off that quickly? The propagation of current in the wires can't exceed c, and will be somewhat slower than that.

You have to follow all of the laws of physics.

[Strange]

9 hours ago, MPMin said:

I believe this could develop a lot more thrust than any photon or laser style propulsion

I have no idea how to calculate the energy or momentum carried by a magnetic pulse. But I can't see any reason why it would be (or could be) greater than the energy in an electromagnetic pulse (which is far easier to generate and control).

You are trying to remove (or not generate) the electric field component of an electromagnetic wave and just leave the magnetic component.

Apart from the practical issues (a changing magnetic field will, by definition, also create a changing electric field; so you might as well just use both anyway), the only basis for this being better is that you "believe" it will be. I don't know what the basis for this belief is, but an awful lot of people seem to think that magnets are somehow "special" or magical because they "never run out of energy". 

[MPMin]

2 hours ago, Ghideon said:

2: Electromagnetic pulse, a transient electromagnetic disturbance*, is sent from right to left cable. The pulse will carry momentum. This is the same as throwing a rock from right to left. Countering the incoming pulse ("Catching the rock") with a second pulse from the left cable does not generate propulsion. Any propulsion generated will be from the pulses sent in any other directions, out from the system, like a rocket thrusting vapors into space. Sending pulses (or shifting matter) inside the system does not generate propulsion. 

Is it accurate to consider an electromagnetic pulse emanating outward from the wire in every direction comparable to a rock with mass being thrown in a particular direction?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Strange]

7 minutes ago, MPMin said:

Is it accurate to consider an electromagnetic pulse emanating outward from the wire in every direction comparable to a rock with mass being thrown in a particular direction?

No. It is like throwing multiple rocks out in every direction simultaneously (ie. no net change in momentum). That is why you need to make your pulse directional. Like, you know, a laser or something.

[Ghideon]

16 minutes ago, MPMin said:

Is it accurate to consider an electromagnetic pulse emanating outward from the wire in every direction comparable to a rock with mass being thrown in a particular direction?

 

Again: Any propulsion generated will be from the pulses sent in any other directions, out from the system, like a rocket thrusting vapors into space. Sending pulses (or shifting matter) inside the system does not generate propulsion. 

Here is the rocket again. This time "improved" to work as the cable sending pulse in every direction and another cable interacting with the pulse. Both cable part of the same system. IF this rocket moves, in which direction will it go? Which one of the engines does not have any contribution to the propulsion? Why not do as @Strange have said numerous times, use one pulse in one direction? Does the contraption below look efficient? 

[MPMin]

Please explain why there is a bubble in your contraption in reference to the design i provided?

Once the first magnetic field is pulsed away from the wire, it has no momentum and is no longer part of the system once it leaves the wire