Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) Hi everyone, Let me know what you think about the following. Is Change Possible? If something is red, circle and existent, and becomes a square, then something red, circle and existent is red, circle, existent and square. If it becomes green, then something red, circle, existent, square is red, circle, existent, square and green. If it becomes non-existent, then something red, circle, existent, green is red, circle, existent, green and non-existent. Edited July 9, 2019 by Farid
Curious layman Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 Change how? Personally or scientifically? Thats very confusing btw, like a tongue twister. Personally yes. If I hadn't changed I would be still be a arragont idiot, like I was in school. I change all the time. My views on certain subjects have been right wing all the way to left wing (in the middle now). Scientifically yes as well, always to a lower state/energy I think. But I don't think that's what you mean though. It needs a more educated person to answer this.
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Farid said: Is Change Possible? The rest of your post is pretty incomprehensible but appears to be describing a process of change. Which sounds like “yes” Also, the contents of this forum are not the same now as 5 minutes ago. So change is clearly possible.
koti Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, Strange said: Also, the contents of this forum are not the same now as 5 minutes ago. So change is clearly possible. In this context, change (entropy) is not only possible but also inevitable.
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 It seems that you guys have hard time understanding me, let me post a revised version. If something is red, circle and existent, and becomes a square, then that red, circle and existent thing is red, circle, square, and existent. If it becomes green, then that red, circle, and existent thing is red, green, circle, and existent. If it becomes non-existent, then the red, circle, and existent thing is red, circle, existent, and non-existent. I am sorry if I am still incomprehensible.
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 Are you asking if something ceases to exist and is replaced by something else, does this mean it has changed? This sounds like a version of the Theseus’s Ship problem: https://shaelum.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/sweeping-theseuss-ship-with-triggers-broom/
MotleyNoumenon Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 10 hours ago, Farid said: It seems that you guys have hard time understanding me, let me post a revised version. If something is red, circle and existent, and becomes a square, then that red, circle and existent thing is red, circle, square, and existent. If it becomes green, then that red, circle, and existent thing is red, green, circle, and existent. If it becomes non-existent, then the red, circle, and existent thing is red, circle, existent, and non-existent. I am sorry if I am still incomprehensible. Not sure i get what you want to say but it sounds like this thing which "becomes" a square is supposed to "remember" that it was a circle? similarly with the colors. If it were not for this i would agree with @Strange that it sound like the Theseus' ship problem. Let me put forward another view, that change depends on the observer.
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 Let me try again at making this clear. A = circle B = square When we say that object A changed into object B, we mean that object A became object B. Once object A has become object B, object A is object B. Therefore, circle is square.
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, Farid said: Let me try again at making this clear. A = circle B = square When we say that object A changed into object B, we mean that object A became object B. Once object A has become object B, object A is object B. Therefore, circle is square. So a circle has changed into a square. <shrug> Not as impressive as a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 Quote So a circle has changed into a square. <shrug> If a circle has become a square, and it is only a square, then the circle has not become a square. If it did, then it would be a square and a circle.
MotleyNoumenon Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 9 hours ago, Farid said: Let me try again at making this clear. A = circle B = square When we say that object A changed into object B, we mean that object A became object B. Once object A has become object B, object A is object B. Therefore, circle is square. They are the same in the sense that both are curves, but just because you can deform a circle into a square doesn't mean that a circle has four corners, or a square is smooth. In the generality that you seem to intend it is trivially false.
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 Quote but just because you can deform a circle into a square doesn't mean that a circle has four corners, or a square is smooth. I am not saying that you can. All I am talking about is the definition of something "becoming" something else.
Phi for All Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Farid said: I am not saying that you can. All I am talking about is the definition of something "becoming" something else. What do you put in a toaster?
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 22 minutes ago, Farid said: If a circle has become a square, and it is only a square, If it is changed from a circle to a square then, yes, it is now a square and not a circle. That is because the circle became a square. Quote then the circle has not become a square. You can't start off by saying that a circle becomes a square and then say that it hasn't. This makes even less sense than your other thread. Quote If it did, then it would be a square and a circle. If it was a square and a circle (whatever that means) then it would have changed from a circle to a square-and-a-circle. Seriously. This is just totally incoherent nonsense. What is the point? 2
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 I am talking about the definition of something "becoming" something else. If a circle becomes a different shape, and the new shape is not a circle and some other shape, then we can say that a circle has not become a different shape. I know that I am saying that a circle becomes a different shape and I am saying that it did not, that is the reason I am discussing the definition of "becoming".
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Farid said: If a circle becomes a different shape, and the new shape is not a circle and some other shape, then we can say that a circle has not become a different shape. I know that I am saying that a circle becomes a different shape and I am saying that it did not, that is the reason I am discussing the definition of "becoming". You want to discuss the meaningless definition you have given to the word "becoming"? Why? "My car is red, which means that it is not red." Nonsense
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 Quote You want to discuss the meaningless definition you have given to the word "becoming"? Why? "My car is red, which means that it is not red." Nonsense I just thought that people would find this to be very interesting because it gets contradictory. -1
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Farid said: I just thought that people would find this to be very interesting because it gets contradictory. It is only contradictory because you have changed the meaning of becomes to "doesn't become." Why would you do that? Why would your misuse of words be interesting?
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) I do not believe that misuse of my words are interesting. I cannot tell you if I am misusing words or not. Edited July 9, 2019 by Farid
Phi for All Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Farid said: I am discussing the definition of "becoming". If a square is turning and friction wears away the corners so it's now circular, why wouldn't you say the square "became" a circle? If you put bread in a toaster and heat it, it "becomes" toast. The toast is a subset of bread (all toast is bread, not all bread is toast). The square with the corners worn off into a circle is no longer a square, but you could classify it with "objects that started out square". If you painted it green when it used to be red, it could be "things which became green". But none of this is really interesting. Change is inevitable, as we observe with spacetime constantly, and as we observe with evolution. Evolution is literally changes over time. When something "becomes" something else, it can retain parts of it's original state (toasted bread), it can be completely different (square is now a circle), or it can be essentially unchanged (knowledge can change your perspective, helping you "become aware" without changing anything else about you).
John Cuthber Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 Can the OP change and become something which has an answer to the question he posed? If not then the thread is pointless; if so then the fact that he asked the question, answers it.
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) I am just uncertain about the definition of change. What I think it means makes me think that change is something contradictory happening. Edited July 9, 2019 by Farid
Phi for All Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Farid said: I am just uncertain about the definition of change. What I think it means makes me think that change is something contradictory happening. Again, a very unhelpful definition. Different is NOT equal to contradictory.
Farid Posted July 9, 2019 Author Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) I am sorry, I cannot become more detailed about this subject than I did. I am kinda stumped about this subject. I would like to also add that I do not believe that change is not possible. I just wanted some help finding flaws in the statement about change. Edited July 9, 2019 by Farid
Strange Posted July 9, 2019 Posted July 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, Farid said: I do not believe that misuse of my words are interesting. I cannot tell you if I am misusing words or not. You are. Because you think “becoming” can mean “not becoming”. It doesn’t.
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