Double Slit - solution?

[HexHammer]

[disclaimer] don't ask for math, I can't do math!

With observer effect there's a reference in time and space, thus time is calculable and will dilate in known measures.

Without observer effect, there are no set reference in time and space, so time will dilate by say 100^10000000000 (random figure) and length contract.
- this will explain quantum entanglement "spooky action from a distance" 
- this will also explain quantum tunneling since everything by trillion of years will be destroyed, so the photon can unhindered pass the destroyed space

A beginning is defined by a set time with a reference in time and space, without a set time and reference in time and space, multiple beginnings are allowed.
- with multiple beginnings a photon can thereby interfere with itself and create a interference pattern.

 

[Strange]

4 hours ago, HexHammer said:

Without observer effect, there are no set reference in time and space, so time will dilate by say 100^10000000000 (random figure) and length contract.

Why do you think this is the case?

 

[swansont]

7 hours ago, HexHammer said:

[disclaimer] don't ask for math, I can't do math!
 

This is likely to be a short thread if you can't provide a model and specific predictions for your conjecture.

[HexHammer]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

Why do you think this is the case?

 

A logical consequence of 'Path Integral', there the photon can travel to the edge of the universe which only would make sense when the dilation are so great, remember in the lab the photon only travels a few meter while also traveling to the edge of the universe at the same time!
https://youtu.be/vSFRN-ymfgE?t=249

[Strange]

1 minute ago, HexHammer said:

A logical consequence of 'Path Integral', there the photon can travel to the edge of the universe which only would make sense when the dilation are so great, remember in the lab the photon only travels a few meter while also traveling to the edge of the universe at the same time!

It doesn't travel to the edge of the universe.

And how is related to the observer effect?

[Ghideon]

5 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

remember in the lab the photon only travels a few meter while also traveling to the edge of the universe at the same time!

In what valid frame of reference is that time measured?

[HexHammer]

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

It doesn't travel to the edge of the universe.

And how is related to the observer effect?

Because without observer effect time and space becomes relative, then what we see as an instantaneous action that the photon travels from A to B, the photon without observer effect can travel for almost an infinite amount of time, so that earth will rotate, sol will rotate, galaxy will rotate resulting in the weird paths of Path Integral.

7 minutes ago, swansont said:

This is likely to be a short thread if you can't provide a model and specific predictions for your conjecture.

I beg of you! Please give me a week! 

11 minutes ago, Strange said:

It doesn't travel to the edge of the universe.

 And how is related to the observer effect?

I don't know which of you are right or wrong, but I can only go with what I hear in this video, and it seems admissible.
4:11 PBS Space Time "particles that takes detours to the edge of the universe"

12 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

In what valid frame of reference is that time measured?

I can't say, don't have sufficient knowledge of this subject since for the most part my mind can only think in pictures/movies.

[Strange]

24 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

I don't know which of you are right or wrong, but I can only go with what I hear in this video, and it seems admissible.

That is talking about probabilities, not photons travelling to the edge of the universe.

24 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

Because without observer effect time and space becomes relative

That is just repeating the same thing. Time and space are always relative. How is the observer effect relevant?

25 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

then what we see as an instantaneous action that the photon travels from A to B

There is no instantaneous travel from A to B. It is limited to the speed of light.

26 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

the photon without observer effect can travel for almost an infinite amount of time, so that earth will rotate, sol will rotate, galaxy will rotate resulting in the weird paths of Path Integral.

A photon could travel for an infinite amount of time if it never interacted with anything (which becomes increasingly unlikely over longer periods of time).

But, again, how is this related to the observer effect?

And what does the rotation of the Earth, Sun or galaxy have to do with the path integral?

It sounds like you are throwing around a lot of buzzwords without really understanding them.

 

If you wants get a basic understanding of the path integral, then I recommend the QED lectures by Feynman; a layman's introduction to the concepts: http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8 (Also available as a book, for those who prefer old skool formats.)

[swansont]

2 hours ago, HexHammer said:

Because without observer effect time and space becomes relative,

Both time and space are relative (though we call this spacetime), and it has nothing to do with the observer effect.

2 hours ago, HexHammer said:

then what we see as an instantaneous action that the photon travels from A to B, the photon without observer effect can travel for almost an infinite amount of time, so that earth will rotate, sol will rotate, galaxy will rotate resulting in the weird paths of Path Integral.

I beg of you! Please give me a week! 

I don't know which of you are right or wrong, but I can only go with what I hear in this video, and it seems admissible.
4:11 PBS Space Time "particles that takes detours to the edge of the universe"

That would be between where he says most of the paths are ridiculous, and that there's no actual physics involved in the description. That part?

And this would be a reason why we demand a minimal level of rigor — hand-waving your way and only vaguely understanding a watered-down, pop-sci explanation does not get us anywhere we wish to go. It's a far better use of time to chip away at your misconceptions, which would involve discussing mainstream physics, than to pursue your flight of fancy which is almost certainly wrong.

[HexHammer]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

Quote

That is talking about probabilities, not photons travelling to the edge of the universe.

Somehow I think you are wrong on this one, a probability are a probability there are no other interpretation and possibility. Either they can travel all that way out there or they can't.
 

Quote

 

That is just repeating the same thing. Time and space are always relative. How is the observer effect relevant?

 

Might have used wrong terminology, it's when things are in superposition, we can agree that superposition are only without observer effect? Yes?
With SP things become unpredictable, like the photon can go through both slits, through either or none at the same time!
With OE things are predictable.
 

Quote

There is no instantaneous travel from A to B. It is limited to the speed of light.

That's a nice Einstein quote, but unfortunately Einstein couldn't fully pair his theories with quantum physics, it seems he only could account for things with observer effect, so you are slamming me with an incomplete rule.

I didn't say instantaneous, I specifically said slow down as in time dilation, but that's TD with observer effect you are talking about, without observer effect time dilation can further dilate with a factor of 1000^1000000000 (random figure)

Quote

 

A photon could travel for an infinite amount of time if it never interacted with anything (which becomes increasingly unlikely over longer periods of time).

But, again, how is this related to the observer effect?

 

You are thinking in too rational lines with observer effect only, you should try imagine the photon in superposition and see where it would be if 1000^1000000 years has passed, it wouldn't be in the same place.
 

Quote

 

And what does the rotation of the Earth, Sun or galaxy have to do with the path integral?

It sounds like you are throwing around a lot of buzzwords without really understanding them.

 

It will account for the weird paths the photon can take in superposition.
 

Quote

If you wants get a basic understanding of the path integral, then I recommend the QED lectures by Feynman; a layman's introduction to the concepts: http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8 (Also available as a book, for those who prefer old skool formats.)

Thanks but I don't read books.

 

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Both time and space are relative (though we call this spacetime), and it has nothing to do with the observer effect.

Please forgive me, what I meant to say was when in superposition things will further dilate by a factor up to 1000^1000000 (random figure), but with observer effect there will only occur minor dilation.
 

Quote

 

That would be between where he says most of the paths are ridiculous, and that there's no actual physics involved in the description. That part?

And this would be a reason why we demand a minimal level of rigor — hand-waving your way and only vaguely understanding a watered-down, pop-sci explanation does not get us anywhere we wish to go. It's a far better use of time to chip away at your misconceptions, which would involve discussing mainstream physics, than to pursue your flight of fancy which is almost certainly wrong.

 

Just because physics can't fully describe the path integral, doesn't mean it isn't real, it's still happening, so just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean you should exclude it and slam me for it.

My watered down version is all I can offer, just because it isn't as prestigious as other people can dish up, you shouldn't turn me away.

[Mordred]

Here is the thing about path integrals, yes there is an infinite number of possible paths. The probability of the path is determined by the principle of least action.

 The main goal isn't to determine the exact path but to determine the overall length of the path taken.

 The paths are never to the edge of the universe as the mean lifetime of particles limit their range. Secondly the integrals are calculated between two coordinate locations. 

Not to mention the universe has no edge.

You really should read textbooks learning physics by videos will always lead you down the wrong path no pun intended.

[Strange]

Just now, HexHammer said:

Somehow I think you are wrong on this one, a probability are a probability there are no other interpretation and possibility. Either they can travel all that way out there or they can't.

They can't.

1 minute ago, HexHammer said:

Might have used wrong terminology, it's when things are in superposition, we can agree that superposition are only without observer effect? Yes?

No. What is the connection between space/time being relative and superposition and the observer effect? Throwing more things into the mix doesn't explain anything.

2 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

That's a nice Einstein quote, but unfortunately Einstein couldn't fully pair his theories with quantum physics, it seems he only could account for things with observer effect, so you are slamming me with an incomplete rule.

It is not an "Einstein quote". It is physics. The limit of the speed of light comes from special relativity. Special relativity has been combined with quantum theory. (I assume Einstein would have been aware of the work on this, but that is hardly relevant.)

And again you mention the observer effect but I can't see how it is relevant. Maybe you mean something else?

8 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

I didn't say instantaneous

You said: "then what we see as an instantaneous action that the photon travels from A to B"

7 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

I specifically said slow down as in time dilation, but that's TD with observer effect you are talking about, without observer effect time dilation can further dilate with a factor of 1000^1000000000 (random figure)

Citation needed. 

Again, I can't see any connection between the observer effect and time dilation. Despite your repeated assertion that there is one. Can you provide a reference to support this?

8 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

You are thinking in too rational lines

This is a science forum.

9 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

It will account for the weird paths the photon can take in superposition.

How, exactly? QED says nothing about the motion of the Earth or the Sun.

9 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

Thanks but I don't read books.

That explains a lot. I really can recommend the videos, though, even if you don't read the book.

[swansont]

56 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

That's a nice Einstein quote, but unfortunately Einstein couldn't fully pair his theories with quantum physics, it seems he only could account for things with observer effect, so you are slamming me with an incomplete rule.

You have yet to establish that the observer effect is in play. We're not going to let you hopscotch past this claim

56 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

Please forgive me, what I meant to say was when in superposition things will further dilate by a factor up to 1000^1000000 (random figure), but with observer effect there will only occur minor dilation.
 

Let's see the theoretical (i.e. mathematical) support for this.

56 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

 My watered down version is all I can offer, just because it isn't as prestigious as other people can dish up, you shouldn't turn me away.

Prestige isn't the issue. Rigor is.

[HexHammer]

6 hours ago, Mordred said:

Here is the thing about path integrals, yes there is an infinite number of possible paths. The probability of the path is determined by the principle of least action.

 The main goal isn't to determine the exact path but to determine the overall length of the path taken.

 The paths are never to the edge of the universe as the mean lifetime of particles limit their range. Secondly the integrals are calculated between two coordinate locations. 

Not to mention the universe has no edge.

You really should read textbooks learning physics by videos will always lead you down the wrong path no pun intended.

That's not the main point, the main point is weather or not it can travel a far distance when in super position? 

[Strange]

1 minute ago, HexHammer said:

That's not the main point, the main point is weather or not it can travel a far distance when in super position? 

It can’t travel at more than c. Superposition doesn’t change that. 

[Mordred]

Whether or not a particle is in superposition or not doesn't change its range. The question should rather be can it maintain its superposition state for the entire length.

(Consider that any particle is in superposition till measured should address that question).

As far as entangled states well let's just say they are easily collapsed. Hypothetically there is no range limit decays aside however it only takes an interference to collapse entangled state.

By the way quantum tunneling is significantly different than entanglement.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Mordred

[HexHammer]

6 hours ago, Strange said:

It can’t travel at more than c. Superposition doesn’t change that. 

In lay terms please, I'm not one with the force in this.

[Mordred]

A superposition state is a probability state. Take a simple example. The electron can either be spin up or spin down. Until you measure said spin it remains in superposition. Once you measure that state the superposition wavefunction collapses to the wavefunctions of an electron.

Neither states allow any particle to violate c. This constant is the limit of any and all information exchange including entangled states. Entangled states are prepared states once prepared you can calculate a correlation function .

So if you measure an entangled electron pair via the probability function you instantly know the other state.

No spooky action or communication is needed. You only require an accurate correlation function (probability function).

Think of two balls one red one blue. Ship one ball to any location. If one location has a red ball you instantly know the color of the other ball.

[HexHammer]

3 hours ago, Mordred said:

Quote

 

A superposition state is a probability state. Take a simple example. The electron can either be spin up or spin down. Until you measure said spin it remains in superposition. Once you measure that state the superposition wavefunction collapses to the wavefunctions of an electron.

Neither states allow any particle to violate c. This constant is the limit of any and all information exchange including entangled states. Entangled states are prepared states once prepared you can calculate a correlation function .

 

It's only called "a probability state" in lack of better words, they don't fully understand the mechanics involved and still fully can't explain how 'quantum entanglement', 'quantum tunneling' and 'quantum eraser' works.

C isn't violated if dilation is greater, then C is still preserved.

 

18 hours ago, swansont said:

You have yet to establish that the observer effect is in play. We're not going to let you hopscotch past this claim

Quote

That's a nice Einstein quote, but unfortunately Einstein couldn't fully pair his theories with quantum physics, it seems he only could account for things with observer effect, so you are slamming me with an incomplete rule.

Einstein's Special Relativity Theory explain quantum physics so we can directly calculate time dilation, that's how we can predict the dilated time to satellites, how the 2 cesium clocks dilated on 2 different planes, that is with observer effect, he never could fully explain how things works without observer effect. He struggled with that problem the rest of his life.
 

Quote

 

Let's see the theoretical (i.e. mathematical) support for this.

Quote

[disclaimer] don't ask for math, I can't do math!

The very first thing I wrote was a disclaimer saying that I don't do math. I think in pictures/movies, sorry!

13 hours ago, Mordred said:

Whether or not a particle is in superposition or not doesn't change its range. The question should rather be can it maintain its superposition state for the entire length.

(Consider that any particle is in superposition till measured should address that question).

As far as entangled states well let's just say they are easily collapsed. Hypothetically there is no range limit decays aside however it only takes an interference to collapse entangled state.

By the way quantum tunneling is significantly different than entanglement.

Wouldn't 'length contraction' be greater? Thus the relative range would be greater?

If I am in a vehicle then I don't move, but the vehicle moves, like the photon are on earth, earth moves. If time dilation is 1000^1000000 greater, then wouldn't the photon still have moved?

 

4 hours ago, Mordred said:

A superposition state is a probability state. Take a simple example. The electron can either be spin up or spin down. Until you measure said spin it remains in superposition. Once you measure that state the superposition wavefunction collapses to the wavefunctions of an electron.

Neither states allow any particle to violate c. This constant is the limit of any and all information exchange including entangled states. Entangled states are prepared states once prepared you can calculate a correlation function .

So if you measure an entangled electron pair via the probability function you instantly know the other state.

No spooky action or communication is needed. You only require an accurate correlation function (probability function).

Think of two balls one red one blue. Ship one ball to any location. If one location has a red ball you instantly know the color of the other ball.

Forgot to say, thanks for explanation! :)

Edited August 3, 2019 by HexHammer

[swansont]

1 hour ago, HexHammer said:

Einstein's Special Relativity Theory explain quantum physics so we can directly calculate time dilation, that's how we can predict the dilated time to satellites, how the 2 cesium clocks dilated on 2 different planes, that is with observer effect, he never could fully explain how things works without observer effect. He struggled with that problem the rest of his life.

Just saying it's the observer effect doesn't make it the observer effect. Time dilation follows the predictions of SR. There is no observer effect cited in the derivation of the phenomenon, or application of the theory. It's not even clear you know what the observer effect is.

Him "struggling with the problem" lacks any evidence to support it. It's a consequence of c being invariant. There's no further explanation needed.

 

Quote

Wouldn't 'length contraction' be greater? Thus the relative range would be greater?

If I am in a vehicle then I don't move, but the vehicle moves, like the photon are on earth, earth moves. If time dilation is 1000^1000000 greater, then wouldn't the photon still have moved?

What all does that have to do with superposition?

[Strange]

1 hour ago, HexHammer said:

Einstein's Special Relativity Theory explain quantum physics 

Not really. But adding SR to quantum mechanics made it a more complete theory. 

[HexHammer]

4 hours ago, Strange said:

Not really. But adding SR to quantum mechanics made it a more complete theory. 

Wasn't it him that revolutionized with the concept of "time dilation"? 

4 hours ago, swansont said:

What all does that have to do with superposition?

My theory is that with SP time dilation will act differently.

Edited August 3, 2019 by HexHammer

[Strange]

12 minutes ago, HexHammer said:

My theory is that with SP time dilation will act differently.

what evidence do you have for this?

[swansont]

2 hours ago, HexHammer said:

Wasn't it him that revolutionized with the concept of "time dilation"? 

QM came a few decades afterwards.

2 hours ago, HexHammer said:

My theory is that with SP time dilation will act differently.

Since you don’t do math, what kind of predictions can you make?

But no, superposition does not change how time dilation works. 

[Ghideon]

Enthusiasm for science is good! But there are some issues with your current approach.

On 8/2/2019 at 5:21 AM, HexHammer said:

I can't do math!

 

On 8/2/2019 at 4:48 PM, HexHammer said:

I don't read books.

Just an advice, the statements above is not the best way to be successful within science. It may still of course be possible, but it will be so much harder than it has to be.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 1:03 PM, HexHammer said:

On 8/2/2019 at 1:00 PM, Ghideon said:

In what valid frame of reference is that time measured?

I can't say, don't have sufficient knowledge of this subject

 

3 hours ago, HexHammer said:

My theory is that with SP time dilation will act differently.

Second advice; I think that trying to make progress within relativity without a good understanding of, and rigorous treatment of frames of reference actually is impossible. You could start learning about these topics by asking questions here on the forum.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Ghideon
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