Alex_Krycek Posted August 3, 2019 Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) Interesting development in the experimentation of human / primate genetic hybrids in China. The research is being conducted by Juan Carlos Izpisúa Belmonte of the Salk Institute in California. The purported aim of the experiments is to cultivate human/monkey chimeras which can generate human organs: The idea behind the research is to fashion animals that possess organs, like a kidney or liver, made up entirely of human cells. Such animals could be used as sources of organs for transplantation. Their objective is to create “human-animal chimeras,” in this case monkey embryos to which human cells are added. Izpisúa Belmonte tried making human-animal chimeras previously by adding human cells to pig embryos, but the human cells didn’t take hold effectively. What are your thoughts? Should this type of research be sanctioned in western nations (US, UK, Europe, etc)? Or should it be prohibited for ethical reasons? SOURCE: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614052/scientists-are-making-human-monkey-hybrids-in-china/ The original story was reported by El Pais: https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/30/ciencia/1564512111_936966.html Edited August 3, 2019 by Alex_Krycek
fiveworlds Posted August 4, 2019 Posted August 4, 2019 Quote What are your thoughts? Should this type of research be sanctioned in western nations Don't we have animal insulin etc already? If the animals aren't in pain then in the short term it is ok (in the hope we could eventually be able to grow custom organs in a lab eliminating the need for animals to be used at all.) Quote Or should it be prohibited for ethical reasons? What advances are we missing out on because we didn't make the attempt? It really depends, a lot of diseases can be traced back to animals and will it create a new epidemic? 1
Alex_Krycek Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, fiveworlds said: Don't we have animal insulin etc already? If the animals aren't in pain then in the short term it is ok (in the hope we could eventually be able to grow custom organs in a lab eliminating the need for animals to be used at all.) From my perspective the ethical implications hinge on this point: whether the goal will be to grow custom organs independently using stem cells (acceptable) or if the organs will be taken from fully developed hybrid organisms after the organism has reached maturity. If the latter approach is taken, then there would be animal rights implications, especially if the experimentation impacts the cognitive development of the species (i.e. if the cognition of the species is at a certain level of general intelligence, higher than a monkey but below that of a human). Edited August 5, 2019 by Alex_Krycek
Wulphstein Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Alex_Krycek said: If the latter approach is taken, then there would be animal rights implications, especially if the experimentation impacts the cognitive development of the species (i.e. if the cognition of the species is at a certain level of general intelligence, higher than a monkey but below that of a human). I agree. They made a movie about what happens if you make monkeys smart. It didn't end well. 1
Alex_Krycek Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Wulphstein said: I agree. They made a movie about what happens if you make monkeys smart. It didn't end well. Too true. Edited August 5, 2019 by Alex_Krycek
dimreepr Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 What if we make something that wants to be eaten? Would that take the edge off? Animal rights... what is that? An animal that lives happily until they don't or an animal that that looks forward to their demise? Which would you prefer? After all we all have to die... 1
Alex_Krycek Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) Quote Animal rights... what is that? An animal that lives happily until they don't or an animal that that looks forward to their demise? Which would you prefer? After all we all have to die... In my view it's about having a certain understanding of pain that different animals experience, and taking steps to mitigate or protect them against inhumane treatment. It's about having a higher respect for different forms of life, even so called "lower" forms of life such as plants, which we now know behave in remarkable and seemingly intelligent ways. Demise is one thing - everything dies - but imprisoning an animal from birth until death while subjecting it to inhumane treatment is different. That's where a code of ethics needs to play a role. Edited August 5, 2019 by Alex_Krycek 1
dimreepr Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said: Demise is one thing - everything dies - but imprisoning an animal from birth until death while subjecting it to inhumane treatment is different. That's where a code of ethics needs to play a role. Indeed, but we have to acknowledge a level of intelligence is needed before we attribute an inhumane treatment; the average cow has no idea what we're talking about... So if I'm happy until I die, it has little difference too, I'm happy to die... The only caveat is my intelligence and expectation, both of which denies me, the happy acceptance of today...
Alex_Krycek Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: Indeed, but we have to acknowledge a level of intelligence is needed before we attribute an inhumane treatment; the average cow has no idea what we're talking about... So if I'm happy until I die, it has little difference too, I'm happy to die... Is verbal ability and the use of language the only relevant metric to measure intelligence? Seems quite self serving and limited to our own species. I would argue that intelligence exists along a spectrum which includes moment to moment awareness, emotion, sensory ability, imagination, and above all the capacity to experience pain. If an alien species arrived and concluded that because humanity does not possess telepathic abilities, we are are therefore unintelligent, would it give them ethical license to confine us and treat us as they saw fit? Just a thought experiment. 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: The only caveat is my intelligence and expectation, both of which denies me, the happy acceptance of today... Perhaps we're not so intelligent after all then, if we can't even enjoy the day.
Wulphstein Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 16 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said: If an alien species arrived and concluded that because humanity does not possess telepathic abilities, we are are therefore unintelligent, would it give them ethical license to confine us and treat us as they saw fit? Just a thought experiment I wish I could comment, but this is a science forum.
Alex_Krycek Posted August 6, 2019 Author Posted August 6, 2019 6 hours ago, Wulphstein said: I wish I could comment, but this is a science forum. The point was that ethical considerations given to any particular species shouldn't be wholly dependent on how developed that organism is from an evolutionary standpoint. I say "wholly" because obviously we have to draw the line somewhere - insects, for example. We can't all be Jains and worry about stepping on an ant.
dimreepr Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 18 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said: Is verbal ability and the use of language the only relevant metric to measure intelligence? Seems quite self serving and limited to our own species. And that seems a bit of a strawman. 18 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said: I would argue that intelligence exists along a spectrum which includes moment to moment awareness, emotion, sensory ability, imagination Of course it exists on a spectrum and a cow doesn't rate very high. 18 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said: and above all the capacity to experience pain. And the ethical treatment of animals (at least in my country) tries to ensure that it is both unaware of it's impending doom (no stress) and feels as little pain as possible (probably none if done correctly). And lets not forget those same rules tries to ensure its life is as pleasant as possible (especially when compared to a life in the wild). 18 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said: If an alien species arrived and concluded that because humanity does not possess telepathic abilities, we are are therefore unintelligent, would it give them ethical license to confine us and treat us as they saw fit? Just a thought experiment. And one built of straw. Is it more ethical to force people to not eat meat, or create an intelligent creature that's capable of expressing its desire to be eaten, or treat the cow nicely, keeping its belly full, a comfortable place to sleep and protection from predators; until it stops being conscious? Just a thought experiment. 18 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said: Perhaps we're not so intelligent after all then, if we can't even enjoy the day. My bad I forgot to include, can. 19 hours ago, dimreepr said: The only caveat is my intelligence and expectation, both of which can deny me, the happy acceptance of today...
CharonY Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 On 8/4/2019 at 9:43 AM, fiveworlds said: Don't we have animal insulin etc already? If the animals aren't in pain then in the short term it is ok (in the hope we could eventually be able to grow custom organs in a lab eliminating the need for animals to be used at all.) Well, up to the 80s animals were harvested for insulin, which is probably not very pleasant to them. However, by now most production is bacterial. 1
Alex_Krycek Posted August 21, 2019 Author Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) Interesting development relating to this subject: "Pig to human heart transplants 'possible within three years'. Hopefully this will have a big positive impact on those with organ failure / dysfunction. Quick Summary: Adapted pig hearts could be transplanted into patients within three years, according to a report citing the surgeon who pioneered heart transplantation in the UK. The anatomy and physiology of a pig’s heart is similar to that of a human’s, so they are used as models for developing new treatments. Hopes for a successful heart attack treatment were raised in May after a genetic therapy showed promise in pigs. Considerable obstacles remain, however, before the genetic therapy can be tested on human heart attack patients. Most of the treated pigs died after the treatment because the microRNA-199 continued to be expressed in an uncontrolled way. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/aug/19/pig-to-human-heart-transplants-possible-within-three-years-terence-english Edited August 21, 2019 by Alex_Krycek
Star Walls Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 ^ Being *porked in exchange for a longer life? A pity the procedure could not have used a less tasty part of the animal. And I wonder if this operation preformed in reverse would result in a more or a less greedy pig. Wait. Aren't pigs, like, huge? *so to speak
mistermack Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 On 8/5/2019 at 8:05 AM, Alex_Krycek said: especially if the experimentation impacts the cognitive development of the species (i.e. if the cognition of the species is at a certain level of general intelligence, higher than a monkey but below that of a human). An awful scenario. One might end up President. 1
Sensei Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) On 8/5/2019 at 5:28 PM, dimreepr said: What if we make something that wants to be eaten? ...I thought it is called "fruit"... Some plants require/prefer to pass through animal stomach and gastrointestinal tract, and grow up with excrement (fertilizer), a few kilometers away from mother plant.. One could utilize reptile ability to regrow tail, to repeatedly eat part of animal every couple months, without having to kill it. Edited October 8, 2019 by Sensei
dimreepr Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Sensei said: ...I thought it is called "fruit"... Some plants require/prefer to pass through animal stomach and gastrointestinal tract, and grow up with excrement (fertilizer), a few kilometers away from mother plant.. One could utilize reptile ability to regrow tail, to repeatedly eat part of animal every couple months, without having to kill it. OK, let me put it another way, what if the animals in our husbandry, prefer that to a life in the wild?
Sensei Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 9 hours ago, dimreepr said: OK, let me put it another way, what if the animals in our husbandry, prefer that to a life in the wild? They born on farms, don't know wild life. Farm is their home. Their entire world. Farm (home) is the only place where they feel safe. You would have to first teach them what is difference between "wild life" and "farm" (and what is after farm). In some Europeans countries there is no wild world anymore. Human made buildings every couple hundred meters or less. Everything connected by roads and highways disallowing natural free migration of animals from one area without food anymore, to other area with availability of food or water. Even fish migration is problematic if a dam was built along their natural route (e.g. salmon) (ecologists just start to persuade to build fish ladder). In Europe, releasing animal to the wild, means sudden death just in a couple days, in car accident. Or death in cold winter night, they are not prepared for (because never had to bother about such things on the farm). Replace "farm" by "the Earth", and "wild life" by "galaxy" or "cosmos", and you have pretty much situation with humans. The Earth is too big for majority of people, and prefer staying at home, where they are feeling safe, not to mention cosmic travel. They could meet mind-intercepting aliens during their journey through cosmic space..
Ant Sinclair Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 If he could see this, JRR would be restless in his grave.
dimreepr Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, Ant Sinclair said: If he could see this, JRR would be restless in his grave. Why? He knew what a hobbit looked like...
Ant Sinclair Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Why? He knew what a hobbit looked like... I've seen those Hobbit Houses on Angelsey, four foot high doorways. He also knew of those tunnels from Turkey to Scotland...
dimreepr Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ant Sinclair said: He also knew of those tunnels from Turkey to Scotland... That was Lewis Carroll; just follow the yellow brick road, you can't go wrong...
Ant Sinclair Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 19 hours ago, dimreepr said: That was Lewis Carroll; just follow the yellow brick road, you can't go wrong... Why follow the yellow brick road, I thought the Wizard of Oz'iris' tomb had already been found?
Platinum Gold Titanium Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 On 8/3/2019 at 12:57 PM, Alex_Krycek said: What are your thoughts? Should this type of research be sanctioned in western nations (US, UK, Europe, etc)? Or should it be prohibited for ethical reasons? Personally, I don't have any reservations about using humans or animals for genetic experiments. The ethics of such scientific practices would be concerned with whether or not it is real science or just some childish game some zoologist is playing. Are the organisms unnecessarily suffering? Consider a chicken farm... Some would say that this here is unethical, but a lot of genetic science is used to sustain these farms and ensure a high potential output of quality meat product. I would say that European nations could get away with the more questionable genetic sciences but here in the U.S.A. there would be a lot of red tape to cut through and a lot of non-profit hippy vegan groups to contend with and in the end a lot of resistance in the media.
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