Pascal's wager and atheism (split from What made you stop believing in God?)

[boo]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

If you think about it, pascals wager works both ways:

The atheist does good because it feels good now, whatever the bible says.

The theist does good because it might feel even better later, because of what the bible says.

Not much of a bet really, unless you forget to feel good now.

interesting

but i dont think the atheist is 'betting' on anything. i think they are just being honest with themselves. I for example, dont think belief is a choice. I could try to believe ,but then i will have these constant voices nagging at me with questions like "but what about this? and what about that?". you just cant believe in something which doesn't hold up.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, boo said:

but i dont think the atheist is 'betting' on anything.

Of course they are, it's right there in pascals wager.

[boo]

26 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If you think about it, pascals wager works both ways:

The atheist does good because it feels good now, whatever the bible says.

The theist does good because it might feel even better later, because of what the bible says.

Not much of a bet really, unless you forget to feel good now.

There's a reason they say confession is good for the soul and it's not god... 

Confession is acceptance of ones failings, which is the first step towards forgiving yourself (kind of important for your mental health).

Most "myths" have a message attached, disproving the myth doesn't making the message any less profound.

 

Yes, confession is an acceptance of ones failings.  but i always found it creepy to have to tell private things to a priest. especially considering their own track record. I don't trust them, 

they have failed us. I would prefer to face my own failings rather than talk about them to someone who has such a dubious track record as a catholic priest..

 

yes, Myths can have important messages, but it is important not to confuse fiction with reality, i think that is where the danger is.

im sure there is a very useful message in the story of little red riding hood, but if there was a concerted effort to convince people that the story was true, i think this would be an offence to humanity, a great act of fraud.  

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, boo said:

I for example, dont think belief is a choice.

Of course it's a choice, you believe in Hitching and Dr. Carrier. 

2 minutes ago, boo said:

yes, Myths can have important messages, but it is important not to confuse fiction with reality, i think that is where the danger is.

Indeed, the danger is dismissing important messages because you think fiction/analogy/fable/metaphor/simile are not real. An extreme position is one that fails to take into account ones own bias'. 

[boo]

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Of course it's a choice, you believe in Hitching and Dr. Carrier. 

Indeed, the danger is dismissing important messages because you think fiction/analogy/fable/metaphor/simile are not real. An extreme position is one that fails to take into account ones own bias'. 

no, I dont believe the ideas of Hitchins, Carrier etc, out of choice. I see their ideas as being pretty robust, it doesnt require any special effort from my part to believe them.  to me belief as a choice, is to say 'even though the evidence says otherwise, or even though i have no evidence at all' im going to act as though i believe something is true.   I would argue that someone who does this, does NOT actually believe. if you have to choose to believe you do not truely believe.  

and my friend, fiction/analogy/fable/metaphor/simile are not real. they may have some value in their own right, but to confuse them with reality is to be, by definition, delusional.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by boo

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, boo said:

and my friend, fiction/analogy/fable/metaphor/simile are not real. they may have some value in their own right, but to confuse them with reality is to be, by definition, delusional.

Really... Perhaps I should have started with, I'm an atheist.

[boo]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Really... Perhaps I should have started with, I'm an atheist.

fair enough, then can you clarify what it is you are arguing?  thanks

 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, boo said:

fair enough, then can you clarify what it is you are arguing?  thanks

Yes...

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

If you think about it, pascals wager works both ways:

The atheist does good because it feels good now, whatever the bible says.

The theist does good because it might feel even better later, because of what the bible says.

Not much of a bet really, unless you forget to feel good now.

There's a reason they say confession is good for the soul and it's not god... 

Confession is acceptance of ones failings, which is the first step towards forgiving yourself (kind of important for your mental health).

Most "myths" have a message attached, disproving the myth doesn't making the message any less profound.

 

 

All I can add is:

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Confession is acceptance of ones failings, which is the first step towards forgiving yourself (kind of important for your mental health).

And others...

[boo]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

.Confession is acceptance of ones failings, which is the first step towards forgiving yourself (kind of important for your mental health).

so dimreepr, as an atheist,  do you go to confession in a catholic church?

 

there is a saying in spanish that goes something like "no hay mal que por bien no venga". which more or less means,  there is no evil that some good doesn't come from.

you can argue that some people have felt good by going to confession, or been helped by it in some way. And i wouldnt doubt, it, perhaps people should do this in a secular way.

what i am saying is that  overall, the promotion of a myth as fact, or to put it another way, the selling of the lie that is Christianity to the masses, especially to children is, in my view,  an evil thing. I don't believe it is good for mental health to confuse fiction with reality. this is the hallmark of mental health problems in fact 

then you have the old saying "practise what you preach". Im not sure the origins of this phrase, but if priests were good role models maybe my views would be different but this could not be farther from the truth.

3 hours ago, boo said:

Most "myths" have a message attached, disproving the myth doesn't making the message any less profound.

cant we appreciate it as a myth?

Edited August 22, 2019 by boo

[John Cuthber]

Is this "confession" thing where you ask someone to tell you that their invisible friend says it's OK  that you did bad things?

 

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Confession is acceptance of ones failings, which is the first step towards...

I'm fairly sure that the acceptance must come before the confession.

So, while acceptance maybe the first step, there is no requirement for confession to be any step.

Its entirely possible to do without it.

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, boo said:

so dimreepr, as an atheist,  do you go to confession in a catholic church?

No need, I already accept my failings as a human and I'm content to forgive myself.

19 hours ago, boo said:

there is a saying in spanish that goes something like "no hay mal que por bien no venga". which more or less means,  there is no evil that some good doesn't come from.

There's an English saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar".

19 hours ago, boo said:

what i am saying is that  overall, the promotion of a myth as fact, or to put it another way, the selling of the lie that is Christianity to the masses, especially to children is, in my view,  an evil thing. I don't believe it is good for mental health to confuse fiction with reality. this is the hallmark of mental health problems in fact 

People who believe exist on a spectrum from (it's almost like they're human), "hmm I'm not sure, but why not be charitable and forgiving" to "you're damn straight and I'll rain down my wrath on any who doesn't agree" and most sit in the middle "I'll take that bet...". Most believers are happy to accept a "lie" because they feel better for it and see no reason to deny/question it.

19 hours ago, boo said:

then you have the old saying "practise what you preach". Im not sure the origins of this phrase, but if priests were good role models maybe my views would be different but this could not be farther from the truth.

 Priests are human first, consequently they're just a prone to being an utter c&*" as are we all.

19 hours ago, boo said:

cant we appreciate it as a myth?

Of course, but would you deny those that won't the solace it brings them?

17 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Is this "confession" thing where you ask someone to tell you that their invisible friend says it's OK  that you did bad things?

I'm fairly sure that the acceptance must come before the confession.

So, while acceptance maybe the first step, there is no requirement for confession to be any step.

Its entirely possible to do without it.

Yep, but some can and some can't, but we all feel better when were forgiven our misdemeanours, whoever does it.

[boo]

51 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No need, I already accept my failings as a human and I'm content to forgive myself.

i can't help but say this is a bit of a cop out.  its very easy to say, lets keep confession, for others but not for me. You dont go to confession, neither do I. So, is there really that much difference between you and I on the subject?

Quote

There's an English saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar".

why is my rejection of the church considered "vinegar"?   im not sure why you think this.  You can reject the cult of David Koresh,, any number of cult leaders (living or non living) who were considered by someone to be a "god", or you can reject any of the thousands of religions gone by in history ,but if you reject Christianity its "vinegar".  

Quote

Of course, but would you deny those that won't the solace it brings them?

I wouldn't deny a person on their death bed, the solace of being able to hope that there may be an afterlife. I can accept that.  but it is the whole infrasructure of religion which prays upon this basic human vulnerability that I reject, and all that is bundled in there with it.   yes we as humans fear death (most of us anways) but because we fear X ,does it naturally mean we have to believe Y and Z ? Its the leap of faith that im not interested in. I would prefer if people were genuinely interested in what really happened and what really might happen. 

remember we are talking about something which has snuck its way into every aspect of human life, education, law, even war. so i think the issue has gone way beyond some harmless concept that just makes people feel comfortable. I would say that the willingness for people to believe in certain things merely because it makes them feel comfortable rather than facing the truth is a big problem today I think it creates a perfect conditions for people to be exploited

Edited August 23, 2019 by boo

[dimreepr]

31 minutes ago, boo said:

i can't help but say this is a bit of a cop out.  its very easy to say, lets keep confession, for others but not for me. You dont go to confession, neither do I. So, is there really that much difference between you and I on the subject?

Well yes, I'm not insisting others aren't allowed.

31 minutes ago, boo said:

why is my rejection of the church considered "vinegar"?   im not sure why you think this.  You can reject the cult of David Koresh,, any number of cult leaders (living or non living) who were considered by someone to be a "god", or you can reject any of the thousands of religions gone by in history ,but if you reject Christianity its "vinegar". 

I'm sorry I just thought we were posting irrelevant sayings.

31 minutes ago, boo said:

I wouldn't deny a person on their death bed, the solace of being able to hope that there may be an afterlife. I can accept that.  but it is the whole infrasructure of religion which prays upon this basic human vulnerability that I reject, and all that is bundled in there with it.   yes we as humans fear death (most of us anways) but because we fear X ,does it naturally mean we have to believe Y and Z ? Its the leap of faith that im not interested in. I would prefer if people were genuinely interested in what really happened and what really might happen.

 The solace of faith isn't about what might happen, it's about what has happened, and how they deal with it now.

Are you suggesting your biases are more valuable than theirs? 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by dimreepr

[boo]

i know that you are trolling

I told my story on the other thread, and thats the price of it. its ok i dont mind.

if im wrong then tell your story and lets have a discussion. 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, boo said:

i know that you are trolling

Your biases run deep my young padawan...

 

[boo]

11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Your biases run deep my young padawan...

 

LOL, sure

[dimreepr]

 

[boo]

oh, so  you are still talking to me? whatever for, im not sure.

I cant see the second video, it is blocked in my country.

the first one is funny,  so im a "bad" atheist am I?    LOL  I just gave my honest account. go ahead and explain why its bad, tell me the alternative (without lying about what i said or being unnecessarily patronizing) but i doubt you will at this point, that doesn't seem to be your goal.

 

 

 

 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, boo said:

so im a "bad" atheist am I?    LOL  I just gave my honest account. go ahead and explain why its bad, tell me the alternative (without lying about what i said or being unnecessarily patronizing) but i doubt you will at this point, that doesn't seem to be your goal.

It's a shame you can't see the second video, it basically says, "you're predecessor was a raging theist and so will your progeny". 

Do I really have to spell it out?

 

[boo]

14 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's a shame you can't see the second video, it basically says, "you're predecessor was a raging theist and so will your progeny". 

Do I really have to spell it out?

 

the only one who can spell out your views is you. 

if you want to engage in a conversation as an equal, then you would afford me that much.

Fry is funny i like him, he has said some things that would put him very much in the "bad atheist" category acccording to some people.Things I would not even say.  In fact, I think it was partly  thanks to him that the anti blasphemy law was finally gotten rid of in Ireland. vHe was criticizing God on a television Interview and someone reported his anti God comments to the Irish Police. The police never followed it up, presumably because the will wasn't there to enforce such a draconian law. shortly afterwards we had a referrendum to get rid of the law, just a few months ago actually. Yep.  2019,  not the 1600's. 2019

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by boo

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, boo said:

if you want to engage in a conversation as an equal, then you would afford me that much.

Now that's ironic... 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by dimreepr

[boo]

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Now that's ironic... 

 

another deflection. fair enough.  

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, boo said:

another deflection. fair enough.  

The irony is strong in you, my young padawan.

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by dimreepr

[boo]

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

my young padawan.

 

it didn't even sound clever the first time ..... 

good luck with your "atheism"   LOL   

[FreeWill]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:06 PM, boo said:

you just cant believe in something which doesn't hold up.

Very true, it needs physical evidence.

For me space and time itself, the atoms, electrons, photons, waves are sign of God.

For me God=Nature

I rather believe, (gives power) than not. I think Pascal sensed that. I need the best physical evidence and I got Nature.

I understand how small and simple I am.

I understand that I am still Valuable. I have Energy, Matter and Information in Space(Time).

On 8/22/2019 at 4:09 PM, dimreepr said:

On 8/22/2019 at 4:06 PM, boo said:

but i dont think the atheist is 'betting' on anything.

Of course they are, it's right there in pascals wager

What atheists betting on? It is a bit unclear even I read this forum since a while.

As far as I understand they are betting on Nothing when it comes to God.

The crazy thing is that the only supernatural I can sense is the sense of Nothing. Space, time, energy and matter free state. 0. 

God = 0

0,0

0,00.

0.00....0=time 

Edited August 23, 2019 by FreeWill