scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 you are going back to orbitals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) Not necessarily. Did you click matter waves on that link the matter waves link details two experiments involving electrons wave nature in scattering experiments Here is one of them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davisson–Germer_experiment Some of the others are mentioned here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave Edited August 23, 2019 by Mordred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 Shooting electrons at a surface is supposed to satisfy my question of what happens when you shoot two matter waves at each other? -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 10 hours ago, scifimath said: You consider an electron a matter wave? Of course. Why not? Have you heard of an electron microscope? Do you know how it works? 10 hours ago, scifimath said: I guess I want something more substantial. Thinking electrons represent whole atoms seems dangerous. So are you looking for an experiment where the wave nature of whole atoms is observed? (You didn't say that.) 9 hours ago, scifimath said: An unobserved atom smasher is what I need. If it is unobserved, you won't know what happens! (But if the atoms interact then that is what is known as an "observation".) 8 hours ago, scifimath said: How about two unobserved double slit experiments pointed at each other? I can't imagine what that means. Could you draw a diagram of what you have in mind? 6 hours ago, scifimath said: Shooting electrons at a surface is supposed to satisfy my question of what happens when you shoot two matter waves at each other? I don't see why not. The atoms in the surface will have matter waves and so will the electrons. 9 hours ago, scifimath said: Well, the point I'm heading to is that they aren't physical. And yet ... electron microscopes. Quote I want two atom cannons pointed at each other. Shoot a million at random angles, one of them is bound to hit another one ..right? Or do the two waves just ghost eachother? Atoms constantly hit each other at high velocities. Most of these are unobserved. Does that satisfy your requirements? You seem to be rejecting all the suggestions without making it any clearer what you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 9 hours ago, scifimath said: but it does have to be matter waves because we, apparently, have never tested with them before. Oh, please. My graduate work was on atom interferometry. There is a whole slice of AMO physics dedicated to matter wave interactions. One expression is "atom optics" because of all the things they were doing with atoms that we already do with light. If you think that this hasn't been tested it's because you just haven't looked. Some of the things you've said suggest you don't really know what you're talking about, and so you have unreasonable expectations of what answers you will get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, swansont said: My graduate work was on atom interferometry. I was just googling exactly those words to see what came up. Glad to see it is a real thing. Overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_interferometer No doubt this will be dismissed because we "observe" the results. But I don't know how scifimath expects to know what happens if we don't observe. "If a tree waves in a forest and there is no one there to see it ... does the forest even matter?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 I just want to know if they ghost each other. You could tell if you had detectors in spots where they would only land if they bounced off each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, scifimath said: I just want to know if they ghost each other. You could tell if you had detectors in spots where they would only land if they bounced off each other. What do you mean by “ghost”? And what do you mean by “bounce”? Atoms bounce of each other all the time. And that doesn’t necessarily imply wave-related behaviour. Waves (in general, not just matter waves) don’t normally bounce off one another. They pass through each other and may interfere if the frequency/phase are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 if they pass through each other without interacting. I don't care about observed atoms. Okay, two matter waves with the same frequency and phase. What happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) Constructive interference if they have different phases destructive interference. I did post a link describing this. See the link on wave interference. Edited August 23, 2019 by Mordred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 You will see wave behavior if your experiment is set up to see that, and particle behavior in an experiment designed to see particle behavior. It’s not like a quantum particle acting as a wave can never exhibit particle behavior in some other interaction. Observing isn’t an issue - this isn’t related to wave function collapse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Mordred said: Constructive interference if they have different phases destructive interference. I did post a link describing this. See the link on wave interference. oh so matter can disappear ..neat. 2 hours ago, swansont said: You will see wave behavior if your experiment is set up to see that, and particle behavior in an experiment designed to see particle behavior. It’s not like a quantum particle acting as a wave can never exhibit particle behavior in some other interaction. Observing isn’t an issue - this isn’t related to wave function collapse Show me an unobserved quantum matter wave acting like a particle. Observing is an issue because you are only guessing/assuming what will happen. Wave function collapse happens when a quantum wave hits a spacetime object and can't move on. Observation (placing a detector that a particle can pass through) does decide if the particle will be cohered or not. Edited August 23, 2019 by scifimath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, scifimath said: oh so matter can disappear ..neat. Again, that is not how destructive interference works (with any sort of wave). 4 minutes ago, scifimath said: Show me an unobserved quantum wave acting like a particle. If it is unobserved, you won't see it acting like a particle or a wave. If it is observed in a way that will show wave properties you will see wave properties. If it is observed in a way that will show particle properties you will see particle properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 I was being sarcastic. This is fine, it just doesn't answer the main question because no one has tried it. Place two double slit experiments facing each other. Remove the final screen the particles would normally collide against. Set a dome over both experiments that can act as the final screen. Run the experiment ..see if you get dots in weird places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, scifimath said: I was being sarcastic. About what. Quote This is fine, it just doesn't answer the main question because no one has tried it. What is fine? No one has tried what? (It might be helpful if you quoted the pots you are responding to.) You have been given multiple examples of experiments involving matter waves of unrelated particles and atoms. So what are you looking for? If you can't be more specific, then no one can answer your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 Two unobserved matter waves with the same phase and frequency are set to collide somehow. See my additional experiment details in my last comment I was being sarcastic about matter disappearing ..that's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 minute ago, scifimath said: Two unobserved matter waves with the same phase and frequency are set to collide somehow. Then they will interfere (constructively and destructively, at different places). See the previous posts with details of this. You keep saying "no one has done this" after being provided examples of people doing it. So I am going to request this thread is closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) That's pretty lame if they don't bounce off each other? Cause that means they are Matter OR Waves ..not both at the same time.. One of these days you guys are going to accept this. waves can go through barriers, physical objects can not Physical objects use spacetime, not the quantum field. The state of a particle is decided before it starts moving on its path. You can't ignore the realms of the observed vs unobserved anymore. Edited August 23, 2019 by scifimath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Wave particle duality is highly tested. Your false assertions are not. Your also thinking of particles as little solid objects. They are not, QFT applies Relativity and uses spacetime it isn't seperate from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, scifimath said: That's pretty lame if they don't bounce off each other? Who says they don't? 28 minutes ago, scifimath said: Cause that means they are Matter OR Waves ..not both at the same time.. What does? 28 minutes ago, scifimath said: waves can go through barriers, physical objects can not Waves cannot go through barriers. Shine a torch at a brick wall: can you see any light on the other side? No. On the other hand, the fact that particles are described by wave functions does mean they can tunnel through barriers. But that is nothing to do with matter waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifimath Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 Fringes are not a sign of particles bouncing off each other. If they are both that would mean the waves would bounce and land at odd places far from the original last screen. Matter waves can go through barriers it's just very rare. You can fluctuate the barrier to get more to pass through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncool Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, scifimath said: if they pass through each other without interacting. I don't care about observed atoms. Okay, two matter waves with the same frequency and phase. What happens? Presumably, they no longer are unrelated, then? Otherwise, how do you ensure that two "unrelated" waves have the same phase? Edited August 23, 2019 by uncool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 50 minutes ago, scifimath said: oh so matter can disappear ..neat. Nope. 50 minutes ago, scifimath said: Show me an unobserved quantum matter wave acting like a particle. This makes no sense. Wave-particle duality does not say that wave and particle behavior will be observed at the same time. If you tell me it’s a matter wave, I can’t show you particle behavior. But in interference, you get the wave behavior, and later on, when you detect, you get particle behavior. 50 minutes ago, scifimath said: Observing is an issue because you are only guessing/assuming what will happen. No, the experiments have been done. We know what the model predicts and know the results. No guessing or assuming needed. 50 minutes ago, scifimath said: Wave function collapse happens when a quantum wave hits a spacetime object and can't move on. Observation (placing a detector that a particle can pass through) does decide if the particle will be cohered or not. Sorry, “spacetime object” isn’t a thing in mainstream physics. Your own pet theories are not a part of this discussion. 43 minutes ago, scifimath said: That's pretty lame if they don't bounce off each other? Cause that means they are Matter OR Waves ..not both at the same time.. One of these days you guys are going to accept this. waves can go through barriers, physical objects can not Physical objects use spacetime, not the quantum field. The state of a particle is decided before it starts moving on its path. You can't ignore the realms of the observed vs unobserved anymore. ! Moderator Note Since you’ve decided to teach/preach, I have moved this to speculations. Give us your model, predictions and/or evidence. You should be familiar with the rules by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 hour ago, scifimath said: waves can go through barriers, physical objects can not So how does electron flow work in copper wire ? It seems you are thinking electrons as a physical object so please explain that. I can name other matter particles that can readily pass through solid objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 2 hours ago, scifimath said: One of these days you guys are going to accept this. waves can go through barriers, physical objects can not Perhaps you could explain why there is so much shielding around nuclear reactors or how hydrogen, helium and methane gases can pass through several feet thickness of solid concrete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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