dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, iNow said: One can choose to accept past mistakes and feel better without apologizing to imaginary friends. Your points are valid, dimreepr, they’re just tangential to John’s point. And his to mine. Religion is needed by some because people don't always get it and they need a guild. We're all given a map, but maps don't explain where we want to go... religious or secular, we all need a guild to explain the map, but were not all lucky enough to get a good one, religious or secular... Edited August 25, 2019 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 23 hours ago, iNow said: This is an important point that deserves more focus. In many ways, belief just happens and we can’t simply will ourselves to believe something. We can pretend to believe, or we can delude ourselves about believing, but when it comes to ACTUALLY believing that’s sort of something that just happens. We either do or we don’t. Need an example? Try believing that Zeus cares whether you shine your shoes, or that the ocean is made of Pepsi. You can’t. It’s dishonest to suggest otherwise. that is what i think. Why would you have to choose to believe something if you genuinely believed it? it seems like an admission of disbelief in itself. 16 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Religion is needed by some because people don't always get it and they need a guild. people are instilled with religion from a young age, they often hang onto it as a form of tradition and never really question it, but I don't see the proof that they really need it. Had they grown up in a society that didn't have religious indoctrination, they may not 'need' it at all and in fact might be a lot better off without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Religion is needed by some because people don't always get it and they need a guild I’d focus on ideas like acceptance and nonharm before worrying that some people need a tooth fairy to handle the times when they fail at those, but YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, boo said: people are instilled with religion from a young age, they often hang onto it as a form of tradition and never really question it, So what? And how is that different from an Inuit instilling his culture/beliefs onto his child? 2 minutes ago, iNow said: I’d focus on ideas like acceptance and nonharm before worrying that some people need a tooth fairy to handle the times when they fail at those, but YMMV Who said I was worried? I just accept that while were all built with the same bricks were all put together with a different floor-plan, not because of the architect, but the builder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: So what? And how is that different from an Inuit instilling his culture/beliefs onto his child? it might be the same, but my point is that it doesn't prove that the child needs it. The child would most likely get along fine without it. If there are untruths in the inuit belief system, and If the truth is out there, then i think the child deserves to have access to the it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, boo said: it might be the same, but my point is that it doesn't prove that the child needs it. Of course the child needs parents, even the bad one's (as long as they don't kill them)... Need I remind you of your Spanish saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Of course the child needs parents, even the bad one's (as long as they don't kill them)... Need I remind you of your Spanish saying? LOL, yes some positive may come of religion, even though the net effect is negative. that was my point earlier. children need parents, but do parents need to be disingenuous to their children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, boo said: some positive may come of religion, even though the net effect is negative. that was my point earlier. You're going to have to back that up. 2 minutes ago, boo said: children need parents, but do parents need to be disingenuous to their children? What does that even mean? But I'm going to go with no, but some do anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, dimreepr said: You're going to have to back that up. There isn't enough space on the internet to discuss all of the negative effects of religion. But the act of teaching lies, mixing myth with reality is obviously damaging. I have made the points already as to how it is negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 Just now, boo said: There isn't enough space on the internet to discuss all of the negative effects of religion. But the act of teaching lies, mixing myth with reality is obviously damaging. I have made the points already as to how it is negative. But you have yet to demonstrate how you're correct... Need I remind you, this is a science forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: But you have yet to demonstrate how you're correct... Need I remind you, this is a science forum? is it not inherently obvious? would you like to be lied to rather than told the truth? and you have yet to demonstrate why people need religion. ...and why are so confrontational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 Just now, boo said: would you like to be lied to rather than told the truth? Because, sometimes your Spanish saying is true. 2 minutes ago, boo said: and you have yet to demonstrate why people need religion. ...and why are so confrontational? Because you don't seem to get it, and on my map that leads to 'frustration' (an abandoned town in the middle of the bad lands)... -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Because, sometimes your Spanish saying is true. is that a yes? you prefer to be lied to. 6 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Because you don't seem to get it, and on my map that leads to 'frustration' (an abandoned town in the middle of the bad lands)... let it go. Just discuss the topic. lets not make it about you vs me. that's where you are going wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, boo said: is that a yes? you prefer to be lied to. Why does it matter if good comes from it? Why is the cause so much more important than the result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: Why does it matter if good comes from it? wow, you really cant bring yourself to just give a straight answer......not even a one word answer. its your argument, make it. there is plenty of bad with the little good, that is the point. and who decides that the lie is a good thing? the liar or the person being lied to? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, boo said: there is plenty of bad with the little good, You've yet to provide evidence for that... 2 minutes ago, boo said: and who decides that the lie is a good thing? the liar or the person being lied to? You, but ultimately you only find that out after the fact... 14 minutes ago, boo said: not even a one word answer. Sorry I can only get it down to two "you're wrong" no three, I can only get it down to three... No-one expects an answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, dimreepr said: You, but ultimately you only find that out after the fact... this is just a matter of opinion. your opinion. I'd be interested to know why you have come to believe this. Evidence of the negative is everywhere. Im sure the 9/11 terrorists derived plenty of solace in knowing they would go to heaven once the plane exploded,. The evangelist sect who stand on the road side with anti gay signs, probably get plenty of solace in knowing they are doing Gods work. Merely believing in a god or an afterlife may not be the biggest problem, but there are invariably other things bundled into the belief system which can have more negative effects I'd recommend you read Hitchins' book 'God is not Great'. He discusses the case fairly thoroughly. Edited August 25, 2019 by boo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 1 minute ago, boo said: this is just a matter of opinion. your opinion. Iid be interested to know why you have come to believe this. Evidence of the negative is everywhere. Im sure the 9/11 terrorists derived plenty of solace in knowing they would go to heaven once the plane exploded,. The evangelist sect who stand on the road side with anti gay signs, probably get plenty of solace in knowing they are doing Gods work. I'd recommend you read Hitchins' book, God is not Great. He discusses the case fairly thoroughly. 11 minutes ago, dimreepr said: 22 minutes ago, boo said: not even a one word answer. Sorry I can only get it down to two "you're wrong" no three, I can only get it down to three... No-one expects an answer... Now that's me trying to be clever, because... "No-one expects the Spanish inquisition"... I may have failed, but it made me giggle... 19 minutes ago, boo said: I'd recommend you read Hitchins' book 'God is not Great'. He discusses the case fairly thoroughly. He also ignores his bias, be the good atheist... Have the magic man, don't have the magic man... I don't give a shit, why do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, boo said: Evidence of the negative is everywhere. Im sure the 9/11 terrorists derived plenty of solace in knowing they would go to heaven once the plane exploded,. The evangelist sect who stand on the road side with anti gay signs, probably get plenty of solace in knowing they are doing Gods work. Merely believing in a god or an afterlife may not be the biggest problem, but there are invariably other things bundled into the belief system which can have more negative effects I'd recommend you read Hitchins' book 'God is not Great'. He discusses the case fairly thoroughly. The 9/11 terrorists were motivated by Wahhabism, sponsored by a Saudi Royal family simply wanting to maintain rule. Had the population not been amenable to religious manipulation the ruling class would have leveraged some other aspect of the human condition to their end. Simply blaming religion is not useful. We can't quantify whether religion has provided a net harm or benefit. How are you going to quantify those feelings of security or wellness some religious people experience? How do you count 'religious' war deaths that would have probably happened without religion anyway, as one culture sought to subjugate another culture? How do you count the silent suffering from paedo priests? I think it much more helpful to look at religion as a meme. It is easy to see why aggression could help some religious memeplexes spread, in the same way it is easy to see why aggression could help a species spread (i'm picturing honey badgers right now). The question should be how do we select for traits that are less aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Prometheus said: in the same way it is easy to see why aggression could help a species spread (i'm picturing honey badgers right now). The question should be how do we select for traits that are less aggressive. Don't mate with honey badgers??? Sorry couldn't help myself... Edited August 25, 2019 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Prometheus said: The 9/11 terrorists were motivated by Wahhabism, sponsored by a Saudi Royal family simply wanting to maintain rule. Had the population not been amenable to religious manipulation the ruling class would have leveraged some other aspect of the human condition to their end. Simply blaming religion is not useful. you are right, it is probably an over simplification. however, the point i was making, is if you create a condition were people are willing to believe literally anything, without evidence, for whatever reason, this creates a vulnerability which can be exploited. It is no wonder that so many governments promote religion, or terrorist groups for that matter. It seems like the perfect catalyst. we could speculate that crimes committed in the name of Religion may have happened anyways under other circumstances, but that is just speculation, we don't know for sure, we do know what did happen though and Religion helped. Edited August 25, 2019 by boo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, boo said: you are right, it is probably an over simplification. however, the point i was making, is if you create a condition were people are willing to believe literally anything, without evidence That reminds me... You do know that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: Sorry I can only get it down to two "you're wrong" no three, I can only get it down to three... No-one expects an answer... Now that's me trying to be clever, because... "No-one expects the Spanish inquisition"... I may have failed, but it made me giggle.. Have the magic man, don't have the magic man... I don't give a shit, why do you? That reminds me... You do know that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, don't you? what is up with you? you are acting very immature now I'm entitled to my view, and you to yours. we can rationalize it maturely if you want. I don't object to other people being religious. you have either misinterpreted me, or you are taking offence to my views and are overreacting. Edited August 25, 2019 by boo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, boo said: I'm entitled to my view, Indeed you are, but without evidence you're not entitled to be right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Indeed you are, but without evidence you're not entitled to be right... and this is coming from the person defending religion? dear god! im through with this. its going nowhere Edited August 25, 2019 by boo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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