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hijack from Pascal's wager and atheism (split from What made you stop believing in God?)

dimreepr

By dimreepr
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iNow

iNow

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Prometheus said:

Had the population not been amenable to religious manipulation the ruling class would have leveraged some other aspect of the human condition to their end

Perhaps like racism and anti-refugee sentiment as we’re seeing in so many places today. 

John Cuthber

John Cuthber

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Firstly your random stranger is their priest

What if it is someone else's priest.

My perspective is that I don't recognise the authority of their priest or of their God.
So, from my point of view, they have "apologised" to some random person.

Somehow they think that makes it OK.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Whatever my motive or outcome I deserve to feel better, and I don't care if that comes from someone I trust or through my own acceptance of my flawed self.

Now, the latter point has some validity.

To say to yourself " bother! I shouldn't have done that and I will try to do better next time!" is fine .

(though, if you happen to recognise me next week I'd still hope  you would  say sorry)

 

If "confession" makes it less likely that you would apologize to me (if the occasion  arose) then that confession has done harm.

 

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If I wronged you by standing standing on your toes but:

I was in a hurry and didn't have time to apologies.

I was unbalanced by standing on your toe and didn't get a look at you.

Etc...

That would be... just one of those things.

(If toe strapping is a game then there's nothing to apologise for, and I was talking about accidentally doing so.).

I might still think you were a bit of an oaf, but I'd get over it.

 

What does the priest add to  the process?

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Religion is needed by some because people don't always get it and they need a guild.

And look where it sometimes gets them.

dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
  • Author
Posted
15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

What if it is someone else's priest.

It's the office they trust, it's like the placebo effect it works better when the doctor looks like a doctor, they don't have to know the doctor; the analogy doesn't end there, even if I'm ill because I did it to myself or others, due to my flaws as a human I'll still feel better when I'm treated by a doctor and deserve to.

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

My perspective is that I don't recognise the authority of their priest or of their God.
So, from my point of view, they have "apologised" to some random person.

Somehow they think that makes it OK.

In the secular world you'd apologies confess to a therapist and they'd allow you to forgive yourself but in a much more long winded way. Would you deny the patient the ability to think that makes it OK.

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

If "confession" makes it less likely that you would apologize to me (if the occasion  arose) then that confession has done harm.

If the person is feeling better about him/herself then I'd suggest they'd be more likely to apologise, akin to the contagious nature of a smile; some won't, but that's humans for you...

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:
21 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Religion is needed by some because people don't always get it and they need a guild.

And look where it sometimes gets them.

That's humans for you. :rolleyes:

18 hours ago, boo said:

and this is coming from the person defending religion?     :doh:

I'm not defending religion, never said that I was :rolleyes: I'm defending peoples right to feel better about themselves however they wish to go about it.

boo

boo

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not defending religion, never said that I was :rolleyes: I'm defending peoples right to feel better about themselves however they wish to go about it.

against whom?  nobody on this thread said that they don't or shouldn't have that right. 

boo

boo

Posted
Posted (edited)
Quote

Well then we're all agreed, people are allowed to have their religions... ;)

of course.  

and denying that right would only fortify it and make it far worse.

the best antidote for Religion is education and information and I think the ship has already sailed on that, at least in the west, it is happening naturally and very rapidly in some places but it will just take a little time.

Edited by boo
dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
  • Author
Posted
5 minutes ago, boo said:

the way to combat Religion

That's the reason you don't understand, it's like the war on terrorism, you can't defeat a belief. If education is reducing their numbers, it's not through combat it's through persuasion.

 

boo

boo

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That's the reason you don't understand, it's like the war on terrorism, you can't defeat a belief. If education is reducing their numbers, it's not through combat it's through persuasion.

 

I  changed my wording., it wasnt the wording i wanted to use.   

I don't think you even need persuasion actually,  the truth is very persuasive if you have access to it.  

 

Edited by boo
dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
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Posted
51 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not defending religion, never said that I was :rolleyes: I'm defending peoples right to feel better about themselves however they wish to go about it.

And if you accept this premise (like you say), why do you need to combat it? 

1 minute ago, boo said:

the truth is very persuasive if you have access to it.

LOL... That's straight out the bible, are you a preacher now? :P

boo

boo

Posted
Posted

back to the petty point scoring is it?

man, find a hobby.

The bible is a fine piece of fiction, glad i quoted it without realising,  great minds think alike I guess.

dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
  • Author
Posted
2 minutes ago, boo said:

back to the petty point scoring is it?

man, find a hobby.

No, it was a joke, hence the :P.

11 minutes ago, boo said:

The bible is a fine piece of fiction, glad i quoted it without realising,  great minds think alike I guess.

The bible isn't really fiction, it's like any text book, it's designed to create understanding, not that everyone does, and that's why we need teachers that understand the text; good teachers do impart that understanding and bad teachers only impart their biases...

 

 

 

boo

boo

Posted
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No, it was a joke, hence the :P.

The bible isn't really fiction, it's like any text book, it's designed to create understanding, not that everyone does, and that's why we need teachers that understand the text; good teachers do impart that understanding and bad teachers only impart their biases...

 

 

 

oh right, then my apologies

Quote

The bible isn't really fiction, it's like any text book, it's designed to create understanding, not that everyone does, and that's why we need teachers that understand the text; good teachers do impart that understanding and bad teachers only impart their biases...

That is quite interesting. I should point out i'm no biblical scholar myself

however I know that there is good and bad in the bible,There are passages in it that are totally fraudulent, it is a hodge podge text from many different authors who's identity is hidden from us, sources non existent. Its fun to find the occasional piece of wisdom in there, for sure. But overall, the only way to decide the good from the bad is to use ones own bias, whatever that may be. Very problematic and not a reliable source of wisdom overall, in my view.

 

Edited by boo
dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
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Posted
5 minutes ago, boo said:

That is quite interesting. I should point out i'm no biblical scholar myself

I'm guessing because you didn't read the text or have a teacher.

7 minutes ago, boo said:

however I know that there is good and bad in the bible,There are passages in it that are totally fraudulent

That implies you understand the bible, despite not knowing the text or having a teacher, that's some trick... :rolleyes:

boo

boo

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

I'm guessing because you didn't read the text or have a teacher.

That implies you understand the bible, despite not knowing the text or having a teacher, that's some trick... :rolleyes:

who's the preacher now.

 

 

dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
  • Author
Posted
2 minutes ago, boo said:

?

1 hour ago, boo said:

back to the petty point scoring is it?

man, find a hobby.

If you struggle with irony, my apologies...

Now were back to petty point scoring... :cool:

 

 

boo

boo

Posted
Posted

I came to science forums to discuss ideas with people, not pointless tit for tat arguing, ok?  

so, lets just do away with it for now  , otherwise i just dont have any interest in continuing the conversation.

Quote

The bible isn't really fiction, it's like any text book, it's designed to create understanding, not that everyone does, and that's why we need teachers that understand the text; good teachers do impart that understanding and bad teachers only impart their biases...

ok, let me put my response another way.

for someone who has mentioned earlier that you are an atheist, you sure don't sound like an atheist.  would you be interested in adressing that?

you are an atheist who believes in the bible? or the bible has been misunderstood ? or what?

dimreepr

dimreepr

Posted
  • Author
Posted
3 minutes ago, boo said:

you are an atheist who believes in the bible? or the bible has been misunderstood ? or what?

Do you even read my posts???

6 minutes ago, boo said:

for someone who has mentioned earlier that you are an atheist, you sure don't sound like an atheist.  would you be interested in adressing that?

I have... Please, at least, read my posts before replying...:angry: 

boo

boo

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Do you even read my posts???

I have... Please, at least, read my posts before replying...:angry: 

sum it up

swansont

swansont

Posted
Posted
!

Moderator Note

This was split to the trash because it's OT from the thread it was in, and spiraled badly.

Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that negative aspects of religion exist can't be taken at face value, and instead needs substantiation, is an argument one can make in good faith. But that's just me.

 
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