What is justice?

[jajrussel]

On 9/21/2019 at 1:38 PM, MigL said:

You would then think a lot more people would be moving to Finland.
Yet, approximately 18000 people left Finland last year, and 16800 moved there.
Maybe they don't take that many immigrants.

How is that justice; Is it their choice not to be born in Finland ?

I sometimes feel that I should have moved to Canada in the 70’s. I looked up Finland it seems ideal, but my question is why is it that preferred places are always so cold?

Maybe the weather for Finland is Finland’s (the land, not the government’s) way of dispensing it’s own form of justice?

[iNow]

Climate is generally not the primary factor here. Political choices focusing on helping as many people as possible while still protecting individual liberties tend to be. The Nordic countries tend to do that very well, and leadership supports it. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by iNow

[dimreepr]

5 hours ago, jajrussel said:

Maybe the weather for Finland is Finland’s (the land, not the government’s) way of dispensing it’s own form of justice?

Nature has no concept of justice, only animals with an innate moral compass (sence of fairness) can conceive it; therefore only animals can dispence it, and there's no reason to suppose humans are better at it.

38 minutes ago, iNow said:

Political choices focusing on helping as many people as possible while still protecting individual liberties tend to be. The Nordic countries tend to do that very well, and leadership supports it. 

Indeed +1, one of the few places on the planet that actually practices justice.

[jajrussel]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Nature has no concept of justice, only animals with an innate moral compass (sence of fairness) can conceive it; therefore only animals can dispence it, and there's no reason to suppose humans are better at it.

Agreed and as humans we don’t exactly sense fairness fairly since when offended we tend to only feel that justice has been served if the offenders punishment exceeds the level that we were offended. When we express that the punishment needs to teach a lesson we are hardly going to feel a sense of justice if the outcome is merely that our sensibilities have been placated and nothing more. We may have a sense of fairness, but we are more likely to act like animals at the onset. It happens. Sometimes it continues seemingly unendingly. Not necessarily limited to individuals. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, jajrussel said:

Agreed and as humans we don’t exactly sense fairness fairly since when offended we tend to only feel that justice has been served if the offenders punishment exceeds the level that we were offended. 

I disagree fundamentally with this, most of the dislocation from crime to justice is due to the fact that the people involved never get to meet, so the victim only gets a sense of remorse from the perpetrator indirectly; it's like a game of chinese whispers.

If you only get a photo of your abuser with a rictus grin, you're going to want to at least wipe it of his/her face.

24 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

When we express that the punishment needs to teach a lesson we are hardly going to feel a sense of justice if the outcome is merely that our sensibilities have been placated and nothing more.

I spent time as a shopkeeper and one evening as I closed up, a group of kids started throwing stones at the shop. I came out and started running after them, they all ran off laughing and shouting obsenities. All I could do was shout "You'd better keep running you little ^%^%$". The next day, the ring leader knocked on my door and apologies' head down, feet shuffling and hands wringing; what would you do?  

An eye for an eye IS justice, in the right context.

[jajrussel]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

 

I spent time as a shopkeeper and one evening as I closed up, a group of kids started throwing stones at the shop. I came out and started running after them, they all ran off laughing and shouting obsenities. All I could do was shout "You'd better keep running you little ^%^%$". The next day, the ring leader knocked on my door and apologies' head down, feet shuffling and hands wringing; what would you do?  

An eye for an eye IS justice, in the right context.

🙂 sounds more like a thirties movie  than something that could have happened  in the last 50 years. I saw head bowed hat in hand on tv but never in real life. My dad would have beat the hell out if me then told me to keep my mouth shut for fear he would  have to pay for the window. But nothing like that ever happened accept for the beating part so I can’t say for sure. Generally he just had to think I did something wrong, so I avoided trouble, and him.

Edited October 4, 2019 by jajrussel

[MigL]

So Dim, what do you think of the recent sentencing of the American female police officer who shot her neighbor, thinking he was an intruder into her apartment, when evidence ( doormats, locking doors, furniture ) should have easily led her to realize she was in HIS apartment ?
Apparently the younger brother of the slain victim hugged and forgave the woman, who only got 10 yrs.

Evidence not presented in court indicates she may have been racist, and she may have had previous issues with the black victim.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, MigL said:

So Dim, what do you think of the recent sentencing of the American female police officer who shot her neighbor, thinking he was an intruder into her apartment, when evidence ( doormats, locking doors, furniture ) should have easily led her to realize she was in HIS apartment ?
Apparently the younger brother of the slain victim hugged and forgave the woman, who only got 10 yrs.

Evidence not presented in court indicates she may have been racist, and she may have had previous issues with the black victim.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amber-guyger-sentence-former-officer-who-killed-neighbor-botham-jean-gets-10-years-today-live-updates-2019-10-02/

I don't know much about the case, but 10 years does seem to be a very lenient sentence (what do you think?) but if his brother's happy with it who am I to disagree.

Quote

"I'm not going to say I hope you rot and die, just like my brother — I personally want the best for you," Brandt Jean, 18, said. "I wasn't going to say this in front of my family or anyone, but I don't even want you to go to jail. I want the best for you, because I know that's exactly what Botham would want."

I'm not sure why you're labouring under the impression that I think people shouldn't be punished?

This thread is more about exploring the role mitigation should play in the name of justice, for instance; IF the officer involved had suffered a lifetime of racial hatred directed at her by the victim (more believable if the officer was black) then the sentence does seem fair.

19 hours ago, jajrussel said:

🙂 sounds more like a thirties movie  than something that could have happened  in the last 50 years. I saw head bowed hat in hand on tv but never in real life. My dad would have beat the hell out if me then told me to keep my mouth shut for fear he would  have to pay for the window. But nothing like that ever happened accept for the beating part so I can’t say for sure. Generally he just had to think I did something wrong, so I avoided trouble, and him.

I didn't ask, what would your dad do, I asked what would you do?

But that kinda highlights the point of this thread, if you would have beaten the child, then part of the blame should be shouldered by your father, thus mitigating your behaviour, but not forgiving it. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by dimreepr

[MigL]

I'm not laboring under any impression, Dim.
I just thought it was an interesting case with a 'twist' on the part of the brother.

Although I find what he did admirable, if I was in his situation and my brother was killed, I could not do that ( nor would I want to ).
Is it wrong to admire a quality that you don't aspire to ?

[dimreepr]

58 minutes ago, MigL said:

Although I find what he did admirable, if I was in his situation and my brother was killed, I could not do that (nor would I want to).

Is it wrong to admire a quality that you don't aspire to ?

Well, thats your choice; but the thing about forgiveness is, it only really affects you, so if it was your brother and you rage against the sentence, it wouldn't effect the sentence or the perp, just you; like I said, it's yourr choice... 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by dimreepr

[jajrussel]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

didn't ask, what would your dad do, I asked what would you do?

But that kinda highlights the point of this thread, if you would have beaten the child, then part of the blame should be shouldered by your father, thus mitigating your behaviour, but not forgiving it. 

Okay, maybe you should highlight exactly where you asked me anything. In my opinion the system  is a money maker set up to make money off the relatives they are not even in jail and the phone is ringing come bail me out he’s still strung out when they let them out he want money for his bills mom gives it to him. He stays strung out. The phone rings he needs money or he goes back to jail she gives it to him. He goes to jail anyway. Hell one time his buddy bailed him out. Why cause he can’t  beg money for the rent and bills cause he’s in jail moms at least smart enough to know that. The last time he went to jail he convinced her she didn’t need her car as much as he needed money. I put a stop to that. His life as a kid was good compared to mine. He’s a damn addict and they won’t leave him in jail long enough for him to decide he would rather work for a living. First thing he does is get high and beg from family. Everyone blocks his calls cause he calls every day. He is out in jail less than a month.  He gets caught stealing packages off of porches. He is back on the street before the sun goes down. Mom lives from retirement check to retirement check because of him the state don’t want to help him they just want to drain the family dry. He emptied out her savings. The last year I worked before I retired he made more money sitting home begging and getting high than I did working. He doesn’t  need to be kissed on the cheek and forgiven he needs to spend enough time in jail to grow up. The Namby-pamby’s of the world that allow  the state to bleed family’s dry. Pop was beat as a kid. That was the excuse I heard For his ways. I wasn’t going to be that way because I hated that excuse. I wouldn’t beat any kid. Don’t make assumptions. My nephew is family. He is also almost 40, and if he ever gets any real jail time I’ll breath a sigh of relief. At the rate he is going if he makes it to 65 he won’t even have ten years of work in. Then the state can take care of him off of the money mom has already paid to the system for his bail and fines. Oh then there is the 3 cars she bought him then he sold for drugs. I learned something  from my nephew. The system exists to make money for the state and the bail bonds companies and the stupid idiots that run around playing bounty hunter and parole officer. The system produces full grown men who think they are sick and deserve sympathy.

Give them one chance then put their  ass in jail and leave them there. Thats what I would do...

[dimreepr]

14 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

Give them one chance then put their  ass in jail and leave them there. Thats what I would do...

What else don't you know???

[jajrussel]

24 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What else don't you know???

Is this is an actual question  I don’t understand it. I mean it’s got the question marks? But? Truth is I spent most of my life trying to figure out what people wanted because they presented that I should be able to figure it out in my own when it would have been so simple to just be clear, but if the topic of the thread is the question still? My opinion is that if the Jewish belief and it’s several branches is true justice has been decided and you are looking for the answer in the wrong place. With out regard to what I believe I can’t argue the wisdom of it. Good or bad death brings justice with  its embrace. The bad loose what they want the most; their life. The good gain what they will never have without it. The one thing I never have understood about Buddhism Is why in the he’ll any true Buddhist would want to be reborn? Is heaven worth the hell.

 Tolerate hell the best you can then accept that justice when it is given us is meant to give you what you deserve, or accept that it is all a lie and continue on with the struggle I’ll continue on with the struggle because it is not up to an idiot with a gun to play at God. We are born we live we die. It doesn’t  work any other way. Nature has decided what justice is, we can only have our opinions. I imagine some will consider mine morbid... I suppose I could lie... but then eventually justice will be served.

 Note to whom it may concern this is a Philosophical answer not a religious one. I’m guessing that this is the type or answer dimreeper is asking for, since it is The general philosophy section. 
 

Who knows maybe I guessed it right?🤔

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, jajrussel said:

 Note to whom it may concern this is a Philosophical answer not a religious one. I’m guessing that this is the type or answer dimreeper is asking for, since it is The general philosophy section. 

It's not an answer at all until you explain the following:

17 hours ago, jajrussel said:

My opinion is that if the Jewish belief and it’s several branches is true justice has been decided and you are looking for the answer in the wrong place. With out regard to what I believe I can’t argue the wisdom of it.Good or bad death brings justice with  its embrace. The bad loose what they want the most; their life. The good gain what they will never have without it.

17 hours ago, jajrussel said:

 Tolerate hell the best you can then accept that justice when it is given us is meant to give you what you deserve, or accept that it is all a lie and continue on with the struggle I’ll continue on with the struggle because it is not up to an idiot with a gun to play at God.

 

17 hours ago, jajrussel said:

Nature has decided what justice is

Nature decides nothing.

17 hours ago, jajrussel said:

The one thing I never have understood about Buddhism Is why in the he’ll any true Buddhist would want to be reborn? Is heaven worth the hell.

It's because you don't understand how karma works.

[jajrussel]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It's not an answer at all until you explain the following:

 

Nature decides nothing.

It's because you don't understand how karma works.

🤔🤣😂🤣
I lived around this long enough to know it when I see it 🙂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder?wprov=sfti1

Edited October 6, 2019 by jajrussel

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, jajrussel said:

🤔🤣😂🤣
I lived around this long enough to know it when I see it 🙂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder?wprov=sfti1

This is a discussion site and a philosophical forum, it's not about winning or point scoring it's a chance to learn something; for both of us.

Here's a thought, how about answering a question or two, so we can discuss something other than what swing to fight over.

Edited October 6, 2019 by dimreepr

[jajrussel]

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

This is a discussion site and a philosophical forum, it's not about winning or point scoring it's a chance to learn something; for both of us.

Here's a thought, how about answering a question or two, so we can discuss something other than what swing to fight over.

So read the article an learn. And now you are going to say that the negative point didn’t come from you😂😂😂 what ever, it is your swing... have a great day.

[dimreepr]

21 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

So read the article an learn. And now you are going to say that the negative point didn’t come from you😂😂😂 what ever, it is your swing... have a great day.

Either get back on topic, answer some questions or stop spoiling my thread with your inane drivel, please.

[jajrussel]

The topic is justice if you want justice get the moderators involved

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, jajrussel said:

The topic is justice if you want justice get the moderators involved

Wow, that's on topic, which clearly indicates you're capable of actually contributing to the thread, why not give that a go.

But if your next post is just another ad hom, I'll take you up on that suggestion.  

[jajrussel]

 

On 10/4/2019 at 8:46 AM, dimreepr said:

The next day, the ring leader knocked on my door and apologies' head down, feet shuffling and hands wringing; what would you do?  

Hmm, I finally figured out what question you had asked. I had to read it a few times before I spotted it. By the next day I would have calmed down, told him to forget it, then asked him to keep an eye on the store to make sure no one else did it. Quid pro quo does work when both parties are willing...

 At least it worked for me With a Biker group at a Scotsman store out side of Myrtle Beach years ago no broken windows evolved though.

Edited October 6, 2019 by jajrussel

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, jajrussel said:

Quid pro quo does work when both parties are willing.

As does a discussion.

I have offered the olive branch, now let's discuss how that's relevant...

[jajrussel]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

As does a discussion.

I have offered the olive branch, now let's discuss how that's relevant...

Accepted, back in the day once offered then accepted there was no longer any need For  justice. It was over. 

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, jajrussel said:

Accepted, back in the day once offered then accepted there was no longer any need For  justice. It was over. 

No that's not it, the olive branch is a metaphor for forgiveness and true justice begins (not ends) with forgiveness (or a dispassionate arbiter). Unfortunately there are all too often less than dispassionate people involved in the resolution of guilt...

For instance, it's possible to forgive your parents killer while acknowlodging the need to keep him/her away from society, until he/she no longer poses a threat to others, with the dignity a fellow fallen/broken human deserves..

Justice is fundamentally about teaching people a lesson proportionate to their misunderstanding.

Edited October 7, 2019 by dimreepr

[MigL]

Other than the Judicial System's definition of 'justice', which is an agreed upon definition by society, any other definition is purely subjective.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Justice is fundamentally about teaching people a lesson proportionate to their misunderstanding.

If your definition disagrees with that agreed upon by society, you should attempt to explain why yours is the BETTER definition.
Not berating others for having their own definition.