Greta Thunberg

[dimreepr]

Since Greta made her speech to the world leaders, my facebook feed has been littered with angry adults, including friends I'd previously considered intelligent and conscerned with climate change, trying to discredit her with various memes (below is particularly stupid).

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/28/jeremy-clarkson-brands-greta-thunberg-spoilt-brat-shut-get-back-school-10823793/

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/greta-thunberg-trump-latest-threat-climate-change-un-summit-speech-a9121111.html

Frankly, i'm embarrassed to be an adult.

Edited September 28, 2019 by dimreepr

[Strange]

!

Moderator Note

Corrected title.

Moved to The Lounge as this does not appear to be about climate science.

 

[Dagl1]

I cannot put into words the dread I feel sometimes. I'll try though.
holy fuck

[Strange]

57 minutes ago, Strange said:

Corrected title.

In case there is some confusion. The title was originally "Thornberg" (possibly autocorrect, or just a typo). I corrected it, moved the post and made my note. Then later spotted that it had changed back to the original (maybe a side effect of moving it?). So I have now corrected it again!

Greta Thunberg suffers from the double disadvantage of (a) talking about something that is seen to be a political issue, mainly by political extremists, and (b) being female.

The second is a major factor (perhaps exacerbated by her age). The amount of terrible abuse that female campaigners, journalists or just people, get on social media is appalling. Male commenters may get angry criticism and verbal abuse. But I doubt many get the sort of daily threats of death and rape faced by women in the public eye. This spills over into public behaviour as well. People have been threatened and attacked in the street as well as on social media.

[geordief]

15 year olds can indeed be considered "experts" -in evaluating the consequences of our present (in)action.

 

For the older folk the consequences can be comparatively  abstract . I personally will very likely suffer no direct consequences of rapid climate change as I will be under the ground  before this really takes off. In any case my  status in the economic world order probably means that I can "buy my way out" of  most likely consequences.

 

The group of young people just gaining understanding of the situation can see only too well  how they will be affected in the coming years.

 

Also parents of young children may well be feeling troubled as they explain to their children that they might have done more  to prevent what seems to be coming down the track .Or just troubled to have to explain to their children that they may be facing hard times and will have to cope with it on their own with tools they do not now possess.

 

So yes ,these affected groups of people are experts in their own way . They have ,in the old parlance  a stake in society that the older generations do not have to the same degree.

 

 

[dimreepr]

15 minutes ago, geordief said:

15 year olds can indeed be considered "experts" -in evaluating the consequences of our present (in)action.

For the older folk the consequences can be comparatively  abstract . I personally will very likely suffer no direct consequences of rapid climate change as I will be under the ground  before this really takes off. In any case my  status in the economic world order probably means that I can "buy my way out" of  most likely consequences.

The group of young people just gaining understanding of the situation can see only too well  how they will be affected in the coming years.

Also parents of young children may well be feeling troubled as they explain to their children that they might have done more  to prevent what seems to be coming down the track .Or just troubled to have to explain to their children that they may be facing hard times and will have to cope with it on their own with tools they do not now possess.

So yes ,these affected groups of people are experts in their own way . They have ,in the old parlance  a stake in society that the older generations do not have to the same degree.

Truth or consequencies?

Not really a choice whatever your age, we're all going to die, whatever the choice.

There is no mitigation for adults, just excuses.  

57 minutes ago, Strange said:

Greta Thunberg suffers from the double disadvantage of (a) talking about something that is seen to be a political issue, mainly by political extremists, and (b) being female.

The second is a major factor (perhaps exacerbated by her age). The amount of terrible abuse that female campaigners, journalists or just people, get on social media is appalling. Male commenters may get angry criticism and verbal abuse. But I doubt many get the sort of daily threats of death and rape faced by women in the public eye. This spills over into public behaviour as well. People have been threatened and attacked in the street as well as on social media.

Indeed, which only makes her more courageous and my contempt more deeply felt. 

[Sensei]

Children and teenagers are discussing about climate change, and protesting in Global Climate Strike, to show their support and ask for accelerating moving to renewable energy sources, not because they are experts in the field, but because they will suffer the most, when dumb old incompetent irresponsible politicians from this world will be long time dead. They and their children and grandchildren will suffer from the current climate change deniers actions, actions to support coal, gas and oil industry, to keep status quo, and making business as usual.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Sensei

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, Sensei said:

and making business as usual.

Did any of us, whatever age, think eternal growth "a viable business model"?

[Strange]

9 minutes ago, Sensei said:

not because they are experts in the field, but because they will suffer the most

Also because they believe what the experts in the field say. This acceptance may be slightly uncritical, but when the consensus is so overwhelming it makes more sense to accept it rather than reject it because you dislike the conclusions.

Would those denying climate change refuse to accept their doctor's diagnosis if they didn't like it? "I demanded a second opinion. In fact I have spoken to 200 doctors and they all insist I need this operation to save my life. This demonstrates how corrupt the medical system has become. They are only interested in money. Oh, hang on, I'm not feeling too good...."

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Did any of us, whatever age, think eternal growth "a viable business model"?

Malthus certainly didn't.

[dimreepr]

14 minutes ago, Strange said:

Malthus certainly didn't.

+1, today I learned something I already knew, thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus

Edited September 28, 2019 by dimreepr

[Sensei]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Did any of us, whatever age, think eternal growth "a viable business model"?

 

2 hours ago, Strange said:

This acceptance may be slightly uncritical, but when the consensus is so overwhelming it makes more sense to accept it rather than reject it because you dislike the conclusions. (...)

...you have to discuss with, and persuade, persons like presented in this article (and followers of similar thinking ) :

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-jeffress-greta-thunberg-rainbow-flood-climate-1461326

"Pastor Robert Jeffress, who serves on President Trump's Evangelical Advisory Board and the White House Faith Initiative, had words for young climate activist Greta Thunberg."

"Evangelical Pastor to Greta Thunberg: Don't Worry, God Promised Not to Flood Earth Again"

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Sensei

[mistermack]

One condom can prevent more CO2 emissions than any other low carbon choice an ordinary individual can make in their lifetime. 

i'd like to see Greta meet the Pope, and give him one of her tongue lashings.  

[Sensei]

2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

i'd like to see Greta meet the Pope, and give him one of her tongue lashings.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-pope/pope-urges-politicians-to-take-drastic-measures-on-climate-change-idUSKCN1VM161

In this subject, Pope Francis is on the bright side, as he is supporter of human-made climate change.

"VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis challenged governments on Sunday to take “drastic measures” to combat global warming and reduce the use of fossil fuels, saying the world was experiencing a climate emergency."

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

One condom can prevent more CO2 emissions than any other low carbon choice an ordinary individual can make in their lifetime. 

.. I would like him to understand this too ...

To have no overpopulation of the Earth (sooner or later) 300,000^*) people must leave Earth in spaceships. Per day. And never return back.

^*) the more people living, the larger this value.

Birth control is one way to deal with it, cheaper and easier alternative to mass-migration to outer space.

[mistermack]

If all the extra money spent on renewables had been spent on free birth control in the poorest countries, it would have had a much greater effect on carbon release in the long term. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate   

 

 

 

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, mistermack said:

If all the extra money spent on renewables had been spent on free birth control in the poorest countries, it would have had a much greater effect on carbon release in the long term. 

I find this hard to believe. But I'm sure you can provide the reference that supports it.

[mistermack]

Just now, Strange said:

I find this hard to believe. But I'm sure you can provide the reference that supports it.

It's not posted as a quote, it's clearly posted as my own opinion. (and I'm sure you're well aware of the difference) 

If you prevent a baby being born, you also prevent it's children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren etc which is actually a hell of a lot in countries with a high birth rate. In my opinion.

[Strange]

Just now, mistermack said:

It's not posted as a quote, it's clearly posted as my own opinion.

OK. I'm pretty certain that your opinion is wrong.

(Apart from anything else, the main issue is not birth control but a range of factors such as education, functioning democracy, health, wealth, etc. But that is off topic for this thread.)

[mistermack]

In countries with historically high infant mortality, it takes a few generations for social attitudes to catch up, when survival rates drastically improve. Education on family planning in those countries might make a real difference. 

The Pope is a real hypocrite, banging on about climate change, while staying totally inflexible on birth control. That's why I'd like to see Greta give him a tongue lashing.

[MigL]

Just to splash some cold water on everyone's face.

I agree that AGW is a serious issue, BUT...
What if she had come out and said
"I'm sick and tired of all you old white men, living high off the hog and spending money that you don't have on social programs, pensions, health care,the arts, etc. This is all borrowed money, which you won't have to pay back ( because you'll be dead ), and it'll be my, and my generation's, debt; which I'll either have to repay at a considerable financial burden, or live my life without the benefits which you had."

This is also something which will affect her generation much more adversely than it does ours.
Who would be rushing to praise her in such a situation ?

It is not the fact that she is a girl, or supports a righteous cause that is problematic.
It is the fact that she is 15 yrs old and not even of voting age, and she is telling democratically elected world leaders what to do.

Let's keep a perspective, people.

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

It is not the fact that she is a girl, or supports a righteous cause that is problematic.
It is the fact that she is 15 yrs old and not even of voting age, and she is telling democratically elected world leaders what to do.

In the US one has the right to free speech and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Rights don’t “turn on” only upon reaching voting age. Lots of countries recognize equivalent rights in a similar fashion. So I see nothing wrong with this. 

[geordief]

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

 

It is the fact that she is 15 yrs old and not even of voting age, and she is telling democratically elected world leaders what to do.

 

I assume your problem is that she is being used by others?(As Swansont said she is 100% entitled to her view -actually more entitled  than I am as I defer to the youth on this in some respects)

Is that your problem with this?

Edited September 28, 2019 by geordief

[Strange]

29 minutes ago, MigL said:

It is not the fact that she is a girl, or supports a righteous cause that is problematic.

It is the fact that she is 15 yrs old and not even of voting age, and she is telling democratically elected world leaders what to do.

You don't need to be of voting age, or even a voter, to suggest what world leaders (elected or not) should do.

So I can't see that any of those things are problematic. 

 

30 minutes ago, MigL said:

What if she had come out and said
"I'm sick and tired of all you old white men, living high off the hog and spending money that you don't have on social programs, pensions, health care,the arts, etc. This is all borrowed money, which you won't have to pay back ( because you'll be dead ), and it'll be my, and my generation's, debt; which I'll either have to repay at a considerable financial burden, or live my life without the benefits which you had."

There are plenty of people (young and old) saying exactly that (or something like it). The fact it is nonsense, unlike climate change, doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it.

[mistermack]

9 minutes ago, geordief said:

I assume your problem is that she is being used by others?(As Swansont said she is 100% entitled to her view -actually more entitled  than I am as I defer to the youth on this in some respects)

Is that your problem with this?

I do get the impression that her speeches are written for her, and her delivery is rehearsed. Having said that, she's an astounding performer for her age, and I couldn't match her with all the help of the White House. And of course, whatever help she gets, she and her helpers have every right to make their case. 

On the other side of the coin, people are not doing more to cut carbon emissions because they are not CONVINCED by the rhetoric. Rhetoric and emotion, no matter how impressive, doesn't make the actual case more certain in the slightest. In the end, to change minds, it's evidence that doubters want. Not emotion. Greta is all emotion and rhetoric. I like the performance, but it adds nothing to my own view on the matter.

That's just me. I'm sure others will be swayed by it all. It's easier than looking up evidence. 

[zapatos]

47 minutes ago, MigL said:

"I'm sick and tired of all you old white men, living high off the hog and spending money that you don't have on social programs, pensions, health care,the arts, etc. This is all borrowed money, which you won't have to pay back ( because you'll be dead ), and it'll be my, and my generation's, debt; which I'll either have to repay at a considerable financial burden, or live my life without the benefits which you had."

This is also something which will affect her generation much more adversely than it does ours.
Who would be rushing to praise her in such a situation ?

Me

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

If all the extra money spent on renewables had been spent on free birth control in the poorest countries, it would have had a much greater effect on carbon release in the long term. 

All the free condoms you want don't reduce the birth rate much if people still want lots of children.

 

So, in a country where there is no welfare state and the only people who will look after you in old age are your children, your free condoms are not going to get used.

That's not to say we shouldn't provide family planning. (And, while we are at it we need to hold the religious  nutters who oppose it in check).

 

But it's really not the whole story.

7 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I do get the impression that her speeches are written for her, and her delivery is rehearsed.

 

Oh- you get an impression!

Well, that's it then.

No need to go looking for actual evidence.

Of course she rehearses- people do. So what?

 

8 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I couldn't match her with all the help of the White House.

WTF has the White house got to do with it?