mistermack Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 4 hours ago, michel123456 said: About tokamak, there is currently an international project under construction in southern France. see ITER https://www.iter.org/proj/inafewlines In Oxfordshire it is the private company Tokamak Energy working on it. https://www.theengineer.co.uk/tokamak-energy-15-million-fusion/ Yes, Iter is the big one. It's budget dwarfs anything else on the horizon. Somewhere in the region of 20 billion Euros I think. The private one you quoted, "Tokamak Energy" in Oxfordshire, is a bit of a mystery. It's not the one that Boris was looking at, it appears to be a totally private venture, although it's only a few miles away from the Government run JET establishment at Culham in Oxfordshire that I linked, which is the one that the PM was referring to. They seem to have a parallel agenda, working on small round designs, but have not yet made the progress that the official JET has. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 (edited) On 10/2/2019 at 3:24 PM, mistermack said: He's not an idiot, (IQ wise at least) , he just missed out on a first from Balliol College Oxford, leaving with an upper second. And he spend a day at Culham, being shown around and briefed on the project by the top brass, so he should by now know more than most of us, about the subject. Ye, he should. And, as you point out, he's not an idiot- he probably has a pretty good idea how things are going and how long it will take to get it working "productively". But what he said was "on the verge". And it's not. So since he knows the truth, but says something else, he's a liar. Incidentally, he didn't get a degree from Balliol. he got a degree from Oxford. Edited October 4, 2019 by John Cuthber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: Incidentally, he didn't get a degree from Balliol. he got a degree from Oxford. Ok. I didn't know there was a difference. His wikipedia page says "Johnson graduated from Balliol College with an upper second-class degree,[67][68] but was deeply unhappy that he did not receive a first". The last bit doesn't surprise me. Maybe he didn't pay them enough. 😉 Edited October 4, 2019 by mistermack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 5 hours ago, mistermack said: Yes, Iter is the big one. It's budget dwarfs anything else on the horizon. Somewhere in the region of 20 billion Euros I think. 5 hours ago, mistermack said: The private one you quoted, "Tokamak Energy" in Oxfordshire, is a bit of a mystery. It's not the one that Boris was looking at, it appears to be a totally private venture, although it's only a few miles away from the Government run JET establishment at Culham in Oxfordshire that I linked, which is the one that the PM was referring to. They seem to have a parallel agenda, working on small round designs, but have not yet made the progress that the official JET has. Whatever this clearly demonstrates the folly of spending £30 billion on Hinckley C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 minute ago, studiot said: Whatever this clearly demonstrates the folly of spending £30 billion on Hinckley C. I wouldn't say that. So far, fusion is just research and development. Fission stations produce usable electricity. It's chalk and cheese. But I would say that fusion is making good progress. The Chinese Tokamak recently set a new record, of 100 seconds plasma at 50 million degrees. It's not long ago the they were bragging about fractions of a second. I think it's pretty certain to get there, in the end. And when it does, the price will drop and drop. The half life of the bi-products will be in the range of 100 years, so handling costs will be tiny in comparison to fission materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 The problem is that fusion has always been just a few decades in the future. There have been many breakthroughs, but they were followed with setbacks. There have been leapfrog projects such as MIT's SPARC, but detailed calculations question how much of a leap these really are. As a whole scientists working on that basic research side of things are a bit more conservative in their assessment. From what I see it seems we are still in the learning phase of figuring what does not work and slowly inching towards the why. Once there the next steps could be more rapid, but I am not sure whether anyone of us will see it (perhaps the younger member of the board?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, mistermack said: I wouldn't say that. So far, fusion is just research and development. Fission stations produce usable electricity. It's chalk and cheese. We also produce cheese in Somerset, though we don't have much chalk. Hinkley has yet to be completed, perhaps it never will. The other similar power stations this company are building are 15 years behind schedule and something like 100% over budget. Tidal generation could produce far more electricity far more cheaply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) On 10/3/2019 at 11:11 PM, John Cuthber said: It's not so long since we had a prime minister who studied quantum mechanics. She was every bit as good at lying- and being lied to- as the others,. Who are you talking about? On neither Theresa May nor Margaret Thatcher Wikipedia profiles there is not a single word about "quantum", "physics" nor "mechanics".. On May's private website there is not a single word about it either.. Weird. https://www.tmay.co.uk/about Just Geography at Oxford. Physics is not mentioned any single time on the list of finished education of UK prime ministers either. Weird. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_education Margaret Thatcher wiki "She studied chemistry at Somerville College, Oxford, and worked briefly as a research chemist, " ("not so long ago" for "30 years ago" is weird statement in the mouth of human being like you, even if you conflated (mixed up?) "quantum mechanics" with "chemistry") On 10/3/2019 at 11:11 PM, John Cuthber said: Was it your intention to come across as laughably conceited and illiterate there? ..but that position is already taken by you.. Edited October 5, 2019 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Sensei said: ("not so long ago" for "30 years ago" is weird statement in the mouth of human being like you, even if you conflated (mixed up?) "quantum mechanics" with "chemistry") Quantum mechanics did not appear in my (advanced Nuffield syllabus) A level Physics. But it certainly took an extensive role in my A level Chemistry in the 1960s. And Mrs T would have undoubtedly studied QM via the famous text (Physical Chemistry) of that time by Professor Moelwyn-Hughes, amongst others. Of course Chemists and Physicist have very different uses for QM and therefore different views on the subject. I could equally well make a case that Mathematics is the primary discipline, based on the famous texts by mathematics Professors Coulson (Valence) or Mott and Sneddon (Wave Mechanics and its applications). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 4 hours ago, Sensei said: Who are you talking about? On neither Theresa May nor Margaret Thatcher Wikipedia profiles there is not a single word about "quantum", "physics" nor "mechanics".. Margaret Thatcher wiki "She studied chemistry at Somerville College, Oxford, and worked briefly as a research chemist, " So, we can add "doesn't realise that QM is part of the chemistry syllabus" to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 I used to have a friend who talked QM all the time. He was the life and soul of the party. Used to have a little circle of admiring friends around him, asking him to tell them more about quantum mechanics. True story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) @John Cuthber Nope. In previous post, you mixed up Theresa May with Thatcher and now just pretending that during writing words ("It's not so long since we had a prime minister who studied quantum mechanics. (...)") you meant Thatcher, when you realized your mistake after I pointed out that education of May is geography.. Nobody would use "not so long" for something that happened over thirty years ago. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/not long ago Edited October 5, 2019 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sensei said: In previous post, you mixed up Theresa May with Thatcher No I did not. I was referring to the Oxford Chemist who was PM when I was studying chemistry at Oxford and, who I knew would have studied QM just as I had. I had no real idea what May had studied; I'd have guessed at PPE like Cameron. 1 hour ago, Sensei said: Nobody would use "not so long" for something that happened over thirty years ago. 1990 is not "over 30 years ago". Please learn to count. It's not so long ago that people have forgotten her. So, just to make it clear, as I said. It is not so long ago that we had a PM , specifically Maggie, who studied quantum mechanics. Since that's true, I don't need to "pretend" that I meant it. I still do. Trying to school a native English speaker on English idiom is not going to work out well for you. And we can add "Makes up sh**" about what people said and did" to the list Edited October 5, 2019 by John Cuthber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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