Revocable living trust...

[Externet]

I had this document prepared almost 20 years ago in U.S. as is supposed to be valid at any country, avoid complications, taxes, fees, lawyers, delays to my beneficiary when am gone, and has been kept updated as supposed to be.

Long ago learned that there is no such thing as a copy kept safe at any institution, nor even at the offices of the lawyer firm that initially prepared it.  The original binder in my possession with all the signatures and notarizations is all that counts.

I asked a few lawyers if a compact disc CD with the document scanned pages would be valid as a backup.   They have no clue what to answer.😧

Does anyone here has knowledge  if has been/can be done, or comments ?

[iNow]

I’m guessing and don’t know for sure, but suspect the key idea is just like validating historical artifacts or antiques. What matters is provenance. How clear is the trail back to its origin and how confident can you be that the source is true?

Unfortunately, once you get into digital copies it becomes far simpler to fake or scam and pretend. 

[Externet]

Thanks.  Provenance... hmmm... Major and minor real estate and other assets listed in the living trust are fully backed as genuine at the county offices as of current and historic records.  There is no provenance hurdles as I can understand;  the point is the rest of the document with signed instructions, wills,  directives, to be backed if the original paper document is destroyed as in a fire.

If executors overseas can have a valid, useable digital copy CD when am gone, the loss of the original and now only paper document would not be a disaster (equating a non-existing trust)

[zapatos]

My understanding is also that copies are not valid documents. They must be original signed documents. However, there is no reason you cannot sign more than one copy of the trust documents. Every copy you sign is considered an original signed document. (I am not a lawyer.)

[iNow]

It’s an interesting question and I have to imagine the rules vary from one county or state to the next. 

It’s a matter of order and preference. Courts will look first to original documents. Absent those, it’s up to the judge if there’s a dispute. The judge may or may not care about backup copies, whether they’re hard or digital backups... it’s up to the judge.

Separate, but related: How does one notarize a CD or digital copy? Blockchain may help here, but we’re not there yet. 

[zapatos]

Also, some legal documents are not valid unless there is an original. If a judge is presented with only copies but no originals he may have no choice but to proceed as if the trust never existed in the first place.

[Externet]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Separate, but related: How does one notarize a CD or digital copy?

I would suspect that the notary should himself, in person,  do the scanning, burn and certify it is a true  digital copy of the paper document and put the rubber ink seal, sign with permanent marker on the CD itself ?

I have autographed music CDs that way...😁 but not from any notary...

 

On the "original only validity"... the last three real estate transactions I did, there is no such thing as originals; not even fax.  Electronic signatures invented by an application and the lawyers involved and county clerks accept such.

And dozens of documents are now 'digital only', including government forms. 😳

[iNow]

Docusign website may have some answers. 

[zapatos]

8 minutes ago, Externet said:

On the "original only validity"... the last three real estate transactions I did, there is no such thing as originals; not even fax.  Electronic signatures invented by an application and the lawyers involved and county clerks accept such.

 

Don't simply assume that the rules applying to real estate transactions apply to Trusts.

[Externet]

Yes, I think that "Docusign" is one of the applications I used in transactions, and other on an internet auction.

And agree, electronic documents for real estate, trusts, tax forms may differ...

[zapatos]

Something I found on this topic...

Quote

...when it comes to your own estate planning documents, access to the original signed Will, Trust and Powers of Attorney will remain necessary and critically important.  Failing to properly store and safeguard original documents can derail an otherwise well-crafted estate plan...

...We recommend that clients store their original trust documents along with their Will.  Copies of trust documents should be maintained in paper files and/or digitally for access when needed.  Generally, you should not need to access your original trust documents during your life.  If you amend your trust, place those amendments with your prior original trust documents in your safe deposit box or home safe.  If you need to provide trust documents to financial institutions or to a title company for a house closing, copies of the trust documents should normally suffice.  If you provide your original trust documents to third parties, there is a risk that those original documents will be misplaced or compromised.  If you lose or cannot locate your original trust documents, they should be formally re-executed.

https://www.illinoisestateplan.com/storage-of-original-estate-planning-documents/

[dimreepr]

Everything in law can be disputed, given the right motivation.

Quote

Jarndyce v Jarndyce concerns the fate of a large inheritance. The case has dragged on for many generations before the action of the novel, so that, late in the narrative, legal costs have devoured the whole estate and the case is abandoned.

 

[Externet]

Thanks, zapatos.  Your link and quote shows some light at the end of the tunnel; will explore deeper :

When am gone, cannot tell anyone  where documents are kept nor safebox combinatons.  And to update such document, you must access the original every time there is a sale/new purchase or change in plans.  But a new CD can be made with the changes, being the last-dated the valid one.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Externet
typo

[dimreepr]

There's no such thing a safe transfer of knowledge, otherwise we'd be argueing over what Jesus said...

 

[iNow]

On another note, I’m not even sure we have a device in our home anymore that can read a CD. 

[LaurieAG]

On 10/12/2019 at 10:21 AM, Externet said:

I had this document prepared almost 20 years ago in U.S. as is supposed to be valid at any country, avoid complications, taxes, fees, lawyers, delays to my beneficiary when am gone, and has been kept updated as supposed to be.

The agreement seems to refer to a Tontine agreement between 2 people. Tontine's are usually made between a group of people where the group ownership of something reverts to the last surviving member of the group.

My father had a tontine with my late mother and when she passed away all of her assets were immediately transferred to my fathers name. The local council tried to charge rate penalties and transfer fees on their house and land but this was thrown out of court and my father was determined as being the legal owner of the property immediately after my mum passed away.

It might be an idea to find out how your country treats tontines, especially if you are from the US.

From Google:-

Tontines are regulated in Europe under the Directive 2002/83/EC of the European Parliament and are still common in France. Questionable practices by U.S. life insurers in 1906 led to the Armstrong Investigation in the United States restricting some forms of tontines.