searching for some general advice on cleansing pathogens from the system

[Adamkins IV]

Hi, I'm thinking about ways to help cleanse the body of pathogens such as for example many people have toxoplasma cysts in parts of their body.  Most who have them are even unaware that they have them.  All of us have some undesirable pathogens inside us: bacteria, viruses, parasites, fungi and we accumulate more and more over our lifetime.  I'm interested in methods to try to completely cleanse some of them out of our system.

One method may be water fasting, a week without consuming any food might have a detrimental effect on some of these internal pathogens which require us to have a steady food intake for their own survival.  In fact it's really interesting if some pathogens even change our behaviour such as making us crave sugar because they actually want to consume it.  Also I've read that when fasting the body recycles old and damaged cells then when consuming food again it produces many brand new shiny cells which are no longer old and damaged so fasting can help to replenish and strengthen us including cells used in the immune system.     

I wished to find a way to kill toxoplasma cysts but what I could find didn't look promising.  The general consensus seemed to be that we can treat toxoplasma if it's not in cyst form but the ones that are hiding away in our brains, eyes etc. as cysts we've to basically live with.  However whilst reading I did find some research that said some cells our immune system uses can actually kill toxoplasma even whilst they are in cyst form such as some types of T-Cells.  

So I thought how about trying to temporarily boost our T-Cell count, just for 1 or 2 weeks, as a method of perhaps trying to get the body to find and kill some certain pathogens.  

Then I started wondering.  Generally having an allergic reaction isn't a desirable thing right?  And that's why we use antihistamines.  But the allergic reaction is the body activating the immune system.  Could we purposely expose ourselves to an allergen for a temporary amount of time in order to get our bodies to create lots of anti-pathogen cells?  If a hayfever sufferer, who has some toxoplasma cysts in his brain, sniffed in a load of pollen every day for 2 weeks, would he increase his T-Cell count for that period of time and thus increase the chance his immune system would find and destroy these cysts?  

Another method might be consuming pure isolated histidine the amino acid precursor to histamine as a method of trying to increase histamine levels and so making the immune system more active for a temporary period of time.

I also encountered some other pretty interesting ideas, such as consumption or injection of silver nanoparticles, as silver is antibiotic if we've silver nanoparticles inside our bodies, including the brain etc. it could actually kill some bacteria and parasites inside us and give us resistance against any returning there in the future.  However for sure I'm not interested in even thinking about having particles of silver inside my body I think it's not a good idea and I'm not interested at all to attempt to do this to myself or to give that out as good advice to anyone!  But it was still just interesting to read about that idea.  

If anyone can give their thoughts or knowledge on this topic I'd be very grateful!  I'm not that knowledgeable in the field so I'd appreciate if you could explain it in pretty lay terms.  

I'm trying to find more information on this topic because I'm currently making a big guide to health for myself (which in the end also snowballed into something a little bigger and includes helping my friends problems too like insomnia and such) which is covering many things like:  Some notable neurotransmitters, their precursors and their pathways, what symptoms of too much or too little of that neurotransmitter are, what can have a large effect on that neurotransmitter (such as things in our environment, diet, lifestyle etc), what we can potentially do to correct a problem e.g. if we think we might have low dopamine or low serotonin.  Amino Acids of importance and their important end products.  Diet like vitamins and minerals, what each one does, going into detail on fats, carbs etc.  Then constructing an ideal diet plan which gives us abundant amounts of every macro and micronutrient all from natural foods.  Hormones including the sex hormones like testosterone and estrogen, what effects them what we can do if we think we've a problem there.  Importance of exercise, sleep.  Toxins in the environment like lead, mercury, pathogens in the environment.  It covers many things like this.  The pathogens in the environment is actually pretty fascinating though depressing and scary at the same time.  Like how many people in the world are carrying around things like toxoplasma or herpes or TB without even realising it.  The idea for my work is it's a kind of guide filled with information or ideas on how to make ourselves as healthy as possible.  I originally really just needed to jot a few notes down for myself to get my own health and life back on track (because I suffered from many things like depression, tiredness, brain fog, maybe symptoms of low dopamine etc.) but our health and all that can effect it is a pretty fascinating topic all around so I'm learning more and more things.  As a part of this I'm quite interested in all the pathogens living inside us.  Some can really affect us in negative ways and we aren't even aware they're there.  Some might really be affecting people's mentality without us even realising it.  It's quite disturbing really!  In the future I'm sure humans will really cleanse out all the inside of their bodies, leaving only positive organisms.  When that happens the life expectancy will probably skyrocket.  For now I'm very interested in what options or ideas we have in the meantime. 

Now I did include many other things in my guide/big pile of ideas which I've not mentioned here, like antimicrobial veg such as garlic and onions seem to have a beneficial effect, I still want to read more about whether they do actually harm some beneficial bacteria too, and maybe experiment on myself with this

Any advice on a general "cleanse" of the body of pathogens would be greatly appreciated.  Also advice on my specific thoughts such as aggravating the immune system for a temporary period of time via things like intentional exposure to an allergen or consumption of histidine, and water fasting for 1 week every year.  

Many thanks to anyone who replies and helps me to gain some knowledge.         

Also one other thing, I'll probably wash my body with 50-100% tea tree oil for 1-2 weeks every now and again say every 6 months, to kill a lot of things on my skin, including eyelash worms 😂  Yeah as you can see I've been thinking about this a lot!  And in my guide there's a lot of advice like washing hands before eating, thoroughly washing and then also dipping all fresh fruit, veg, leaves etc. in boiling water for a few seconds before consumption (because plants and not meats are the most common source of food poisoning).  Many things to cover.  I am wondering a lot right now about any ideas on how we can maybe kill toxoplasma cysts and other stubborn pathogens like these if they're already inside us.    

And I know, being "too hygienic" can also have negative consequences, like babies born via c-section have worse immune systems yep don't worry I know this and cover this too.  Do we want to use antibacterial wash on ourselves or not?  It's a debate in itself.  This is all  just interesting ideas at this stage.  

[CharonY]

The basic issue with your premise is that we actually do not accumulate pathogens. Rather there is a certain equilibrium in our biota between harmless, opportunstic harmful and actual pathogens. If you are healthy, the latter are in a controlled level, resulting in no disease. There is literally no way to cleanse yourself of your biota in a healthy way. What you are specifically thinking about are a subset of pathogens and parasites that are persistent but often stay dormant (Toxoplasma gondii is an eukaryotic example, another well known prokaryotic one is Mycobacterium tuberculosis). Treating those requires aggressive measures and typically only works when they are actually active (and are usually pretty harmful to the patients, too). There is simply no way to keep bacteria out, nor is it a good idea (past typical hygiene). Washing raw products before consumption is not a bad idea, but trying to get rid of the normal biota on your skin is. Destroying your normal skin composition allows other bacteria to settle, which can cause to all kind of problems (not sure whether tea oil is potent enough to actually do anything, though). 

The best defense is a) keeping away from infection sources and b) maintain a healthy biota which helps outcompeting pathogens. 

[Strange]

9 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The best defense is a) keeping away from infection sources and b) maintain a healthy biota which helps outcompeting pathogens. 

Plus a balanced diet and some moderate exercise to maintain your general health, perhaps

[Adamkins IV]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

The basic issue with your premise is that we actually do not accumulate pathogens. Rather there is a certain equilibrium in our biota between harmless, opportunstic harmful and actual pathogens. If you are healthy, the latter are in a controlled level, resulting in no disease. There is literally no way to cleanse yourself of your biota in a healthy way. What you are specifically thinking about are a subset of pathogens and parasites that are persistent but often stay dormant (Toxoplasma gondii is an eukaryotic example, another well known prokaryotic one is Mycobacterium tuberculosis). Treating those requires aggressive measures and typically only works when they are actually active (and are usually pretty harmful to the patients, too). There is simply no way to keep bacteria out, nor is it a good idea (past typical hygiene). Washing raw products before consumption is not a bad idea, but trying to get rid of the normal biota on your skin is. Destroying your normal skin composition allows other bacteria to settle, which can cause to all kind of problems (not sure whether tea oil is potent enough to actually do anything, though). 

The best defense is a) keeping away from infection sources and b) maintain a healthy biota which helps outcompeting pathogens. 

We definitely do accumulate pathogens.  A foetus is sterile.  A baby gets its first load of pathogens as it slides through its mothers vagina and her fluids there.  That's our christening into the dirty real world.  From there we accumulate pathogens by chance from random exposure to them in the environment.  There is not an equilibrium where every single human has exactly the same level of bacteria, parasites, fungi and viruses living inside of them.  Not at all.  For example babies don't have eyelash worms.  50% of 18 year olds may have them.  95% of 70 year olds may have them.  For example 30% of the world may have toxoplasma cysts living inside them.  This isn't an equilibrium, this is a case of either you have contracted it or you haven't.  The longer we are alive, or more specifically the more things we come into contact with, the more chance we contract something new and add it to our bodies either the inside or outside of it.  Now yes in many cases our bodies will kill foreign pathogens which try to settle on us.  Our own microbiome might be too powerful for it and not give it any space.  But there are plenty of pathogens which we can contract which can and do find a living space on us.  We only really identify the ones which give us obvious bad symptoms.  Lets give an example:  A man has sex with a woman, he contracts a million new life forms now living on the outside of his penis or inside his urethra which weren't there before.  His own microbiome compete with them, some just take up resources so the new ones starve, some even eat the new ones, so many of the new ones cant survive and die, perhaps the immune system also kills some of the new ones.  But some of the new ones find a space and survive.  Lets say now he's got 1000 new things living on his penis and inside his urethra after it's all settled down.  Now his microbiome has changed.  Now lets say 1 is giving a particularly bad symptom, he goes to the doctor, they discover it's chlamidya, he has an antibiotic and it's killed.  Lets say some are not giving so obvious symptoms, they're ignored or never even discovered.  But we can contract things which give us bad symptoms and it's not obvious this thing is the cause of it.  There are so many life forms which live on and inside us we haven't even discovered yet.  And we do accumulate them throughout life.  The elderly have the most pathogens whilst a foetus is sterile.  Furthermore into old age the immune system weakens then many of these pathogens we've accumulated over our lifetime can break out and become much more powerful.  It's a bad situation.  I am not trying to get rid of my microbiome (I'll always have one) and I agree that if we "nuke" our system to randomly kill a lot of good and bad life forms we may end up worse off rather than better off.  But then again we may in fact end up better off than worse off because our good bacteria may recover faster than we contract bad ones again.  Another interesting thing is what if we contract some positive bacteria, kill it, then never contract it again, this would be bad.  I am considering all of these things and writing about them.  But I will also clear some specific things from my body.  100% I'll use tea tree oil to clear:  Fungus growing on my skin including scalp, eyelash worms.  I will water fast.  The point here is making a decision which has the overall most beneficial effect.  Just ignoring everything is not the optimal solution in my opinion.  If we have toxoplasma cysts I think 100% that it's more beneficial to remove them especially because they may secrete dopamine and change our behaviour.  Also if we increase our T-Cell count for example, most of the beneficial life in our bodies has evolved to not be targeted by our own immune system, so if we temporarily aggravate our immune system for the purpose of producing more T-Cells, for the purpose of hopefully killing some toxoplasma cysts, much of our good microbiome should not be affected anyway.       

I don't have an education in this field though so what I most want to know and what I don't understand is all the underlying mechanisms, things which should be considered which I'm ignorant of etc. of the following:
1. In theory would it be possible to purposely aggravate our immune system, such as by exposing ourselves to an allergen e.g. a hay-fever sufferer to pollen, in order to increase T-Cell count?  For the purpose of those T-Cells finding and destroying pathogens. 

2. Can we do this by supplementing with the amino acid histidine?  Does histidine consumption increase histamine levels, leading to increased activation of the immune system and release of more T-Cells into the system?  

[Strange]

16 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

A foetus is sterile.

Citation needed. 

16 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

There is not an equilibrium where every single human has exactly the same level of bacteria, parasites, fungi and viruses living inside of them.

No one said there was.

17 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

I don't have an education in this field though

And yet you reject information from someone who does.

[CharonY]

It is not helpful that you conflate biota with pathogens. The fact that certain pathogens may be acquired along the way does not invalidate the fact that your biota is not just a simple accumulation of bacteria, but an ecosystem that is developed within you. Increasing immune responses and inflammation is very, very bad idea, as a) they result in damages to your body and b) can disrupt a healthy biota, which allows certain pathogens to settle more effectively. Folks with certain syndromes that result in bowel inflammation are at higher risk being affected by opportunistic pathogens for example.

With regard to infant colonization, while the biota generally establishes post-birth, the important bit is that succesful colonization (e.g. in conjunction with lactation) first with Bifidobacterium followed by transition after weaning is an important aspect of healthy development. In other words, not each exposure suddenly changes the microbiome, it settles depending on a variety endogeneous and exegenous factors (including diet and lifestyle). Early disruptions either in the mother or in the child are linked to alterations in the immunoprofile and have also been associated with certain adverse health effects. For the most part we are constantly beset with rather nasty bacteria. But the fact that you have got an intact biota protects you from that.  What you also need to understand is that in order for the adaptive immune system to work you need balance. Overabundance due to health issues, can result in rather severe diseases (such as autoimmune disorders). There is evidence that the interaction of the immune system with the microbiota assist in this balancing act. 

Note that some pathogens, including food borne ones, actually overstimulate host immune response in order to infect their hosts. One route is to use inflammation to suppress the beneficial biota and thereby allowing the pathogen to outcompete them. The normal flora is only restore once the inflammation subsides. In other words, deliberately disrupting your immune system outside of highly specific cases, is a horrible, horrible idea. 

[Adamkins IV]

19 minutes ago, Strange said:

Citation needed. 

No one said there was.

And yet you reject information from someone who does.

Something which isn't true isn't information.  I will reject anything which isn't correct from anywhere regardless of the source and I always will do so.  We do accumulate pathogens.  That's a fact which I know.  Regardless of anyone's education anyone can be right or wrong and I will always reject information which is wrong.  Not doing so is a logical fallacy called "argument from authority".  I respect anyone's advice and I'm not educated in this field, I'm not looking to argue with anyone and I wasn't being nasty to anyone with my words, I'm looking to learn more things and I am humble, but I also have the right to point out facts and to debate or share my knowledge on an equal level.  You're not my superior.  We do accumulate pathogens.  You can feel free to respond as to why you still believe that we don't accumulate pathogens over our lifetime if you wish to.  I'll discuss it in a civilised manner with anyone.  If anyone teaches me things that's great for me.  Though for now I'm sticking to what I know which is that we do accumulate many microorganisms and pathogens over our lifetime both on the outside and inside of us, from contact with them in our environment.  Elderly people have way more microorganisms living on them than toddlers.  They also have way more pathogens.  If you disagree you can feel free to say why and teach me why that's not true.  

28 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is not helpful that you conflate biota with pathogens. The fact that certain pathogens may be acquired along the way does not invalidate the fact that your biota is not just a simple accumulation of bacteria, but an ecosystem that is developed within you. Increasing immune responses and inflammation is very, very bad idea, as a) they result in damages to your body and b) can disrupt a healthy biota, which allows certain pathogens to settle more effectively. Folks with certain syndromes that result in bowel inflammation are at higher risk being affected by opportunistic pathogens for example.

With regard to infant colonization, while the biota generally establishes post-birth, the important bit is that succesful colonization (e.g. in conjunction with lactation) first with Bifidobacterium followed by transition after weaning is an important aspect of healthy development. In other words, not each exposure suddenly changes the microbiome, it settles depending on a variety endogeneous and exegenous factors (including diet and lifestyle). Early disruptions either in the mother or in the child are linked to alterations in the immunoprofile and have also been associated with certain adverse health effects. For the most part we are constantly beset with rather nasty bacteria. But the fact that you have got an intact biota protects you from that.  What you also need to understand is that in order for the adaptive immune system to work you need balance. Overabundance due to health issues, can result in rather severe diseases (such as autoimmune disorders). There is evidence that the interaction of the immune system with the microbiota assist in this balancing act. 

Note that some pathogens, including food borne ones, actually overstimulate host immune response in order to infect their hosts. One route is to use inflammation to suppress the beneficial biota and thereby allowing the pathogen to outcompete them. The normal flora is only restore once the inflammation subsides. In other words, deliberately disrupting your immune system outside of highly specific cases, is a horrible, horrible idea. 

I understand what's a microbiome (the ecosystem of bacteria which live on us) what's a pathogen (any harmful microorgansim including a harmful bacteria, virus, fungi or parasite), what's a virus, a parasite and fungi, and also that there are beneficial bacteria and even beneficial viruses, parasites and fungi too.  In fact any microorganism which needs to live on or inside us would benefit more from being beneficial to us, that way we are healthier and live longer and they get to live longer on or inside us too.  Many evolved their negative effects like making us cough so they could spread easier, not to purposely harm us.  As for our microbiome it may still be comprised of bacteria which isn't good for us too.  It will constantly change.  Every time you shake someone's hand you change your microbiome.  When you lie next to a new lover your skin against theirs the microbiome of your skin will change to be more similar to hers and vice versa.  

In the future I am sure that humans will be able to quickly scan anyone and there will be a log of every single atom in that person's body, and every single cell, and every single microorganism.  We will easily be able to manipulate this.  To extract ones we deem not beneficial.  To add new ones we deem beneficial.  This will be a big debate in the future, which microorganisms are good or bad, people will argue this one is good we should keep it whilst others will say no it's bad we should remove it.  Mistakes will be made, some will be removed which shouldn't be.  But in the end people will find a good composition which will probably increase our life expectancy and eliminate many diseases for good.  If a person from the year 4000 travels back in time to now they'll probably instantly drop dead because we are so filthy and diseased compared to them.  

We aren't at this stage yet.  But we do have many things living on and inside our bodies.  Some of these things are essential to us.  We will die if they all suddenly disappear.  Some of them are beneficial but not essential.  Some of them are more or less neutral or they may provide a few positive but also a few negative effects, whether we want these ones or not is surely confusing and will require a lot of study and debate.  Some of them may have minor negative effects but mild enough that we don't really notice enough to study them and develop a cure for them.  Some of them may have negative effects but they produce this in such a way that we don't realise they're the cause so we don't develop a cure for them.  And finally some of them produce large negative effects and it's obvious they're doing it.  We develop a cure for them and study these ones the most.  

I'm interested in all of this and in how we can remove some of the negative microorganisms from our system, whether they be bacteria, viruses, fungi or parasites.  Of course I don't think we should remove the beneficial microorganisms.  I want to keep the beneficial ones and if there are any beneficial microorganisms out there which aren't currently living on or inside me I'd like to get them too lol!  And as for the negative ones, why shouldn't we target and remove the negative ones if we can?  Let's discuss ways we can possibly do that even if it's only very hypothetical it's still interesting to consider isn't it?  How about if we eat many antibacterial veg like garlic then have pro-biotics after.. why don't we have a pro-biotic wipe for the skin we could use after using antibacterial wash on our skin?   Many of our beneficial organisms evolved to live alongside our immune system and not be targeted by it.  I recently read research about how T-Cells can kill toxoplasma cysts that's why I was interested in temporarily increasing T-cell count such as for a 2 week duration.  You said that this can harm us.. I know that.. but it's only for a temporary duration it's a trade off between feeling ill for 2 weeks but killing the toxoplasma cysts.  But you also said that this could still kill some of our beneficial microorganisms too, I'll have to read and learn a lot lot more about this I guess.  I'm interested and thinking of many things. Though sure I am not educated in this field, but I can accumulate knowledge and think upon it.  

You said some very interesting things to me that I have to think more about and read more about.  It's also very interesting that you said some pathogens actually overstimulate the immune system on purpose and this helps them to infect us, I'll have to read more about this too!
 

[John Cuthber]

30 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

Something which isn't true isn't information.  I will reject anything which isn't correct from anywhere regardless of the source and I always will do so. 

How will you know what is correct and what is incorrect?

31 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

We do accumulate pathogens.  That's a fact which I know. 

In general, we destroy them, rather than accumulating  them. I do not still have all the colds or sore throats I ever caught.

It's true that, for example, we never really get rid of some- like Measles- which is why it's very rare to get it twice.

However, once we have fought them to a standstill, they are hardly pathogenic.

 

 

 

 

[CharonY]

7 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

In general, we destroy them, rather than accumulating  them. I do not still have all the colds or sore throats I ever caught.

Likewise, if that was true our bacterial load would massively increase within a short amount of time, which is trivially not true.

[Adamkins IV]

56 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

How will you know what is correct and what is incorrect?

In general, we destroy them, rather than accumulating  them. I do not still have all the colds or sore throats I ever caught.

It's true that, for example, we never really get rid of some- like Measles- which is why it's very rare to get it twice.

However, once we have fought them to a standstill, they are hardly pathogenic.

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty open minded but I know that we accumulate pathogens like I know that we breathe oxygen, if I'm wrong about that then it's like I'm living in an alternate reality and nothing makes sense anymore.  

Yeah like you said they are at a standstill and not pathogenic because our immune system suppresses them, they have a defence against that, they go dormant and the immune system stops detecting and targeting them.  They are just sitting inside us biding our time until our immune system is weakened one day then boom herpes breaks out, toxoplasma breaks out etc.  They're so insidious and sneaky!  Also they may actually have effects on us even whilst in their passive state which we aren't paying attention to e.g. the toxoplasma cysts producing dopamine.  Also... if we can remove them we should.  If we had the ability to surely we would.   We're just ignoring them and saying we're fine why?  Because we don't want to think about the fact we're so infected?  ha.  

so the point is that when we were first infected our immune system was activated.  You have no problem with this right?  You're not saying it's a terrible thing that the immune system was activated whilst we were infected with the active form of the pathogen right?  Do you think it's a good thing the immune system responded in that time?  So far we aren't against the immune system being activated to fight the pathogen?  Now whilst this is all happening if the pathogen is stronger than the immune system and it wins, it kills us despite our immune systems best efforts.  If the pathogen is being overpowered by our immune system however it may notice it's losing and go into a dormant form, thus our immune system stops detecting it, our immune system relaxes, then the pathogen can lie and wait in a dormant form.  Did we really want our immune system to relax and stop targeting them when they pulled off this trick?  When we were so close to killing them all?  Didn't we want them to all be killed even the ones in dormant form too?  And now do we want to leave a few left, lying in wait, so that if ever our immune system is severely weakened they will break out again?  If we are still infected e.g. by toxoplasma cysts lying dormant, maybe the immune system should be stimulated more, to counteract this trick of theirs to lie dormant and hide from the immune system, to correct this error of the immune system switching off and not finishing the job.  That's why I'm very interested in the idea of stimulating the immune system, say for 1 or 2 weeks once per year or whatever, to kill pathogens we accumulate.  Now I don't know if my idea is a good one or bad one, but regardless I think it's an interesting one.  I'm sure there's a good debate that can be had around all of this issue.  I'm also sure everyone would agree that were it possible we'd like to remove every single microorganism from our bodies which are not beneficial to us, if the pros outweighed the cons.      

So what I'll try to find the answer to now is 

1. I still don't know about the mechanisms of stimulating the immune system via exposure to an allergen, how this may increase T-Cell count and potentially these T-Cells could go on to find and kill a pathogen like a toxoplasma cyst.  I'll try to find the answers to this online.  I just want to know this:  There's a man.  He has 50 toxoplasma cysts in his brain.  He also has hayfever.  He sniffs pollen.  His immune system gets aggravated.  T-Cells are released.  They find the toxoplasma cysts and kill them.  Ignoring anything else like saying it's not a good idea, can this series of events actually happen?  Am I overlooking something really obvious or is this chain of events what can actually happen?  

2. I still don't know if consumption of histidine will stimulate the immune system and increase t-cell count.  Does consuming histidine do this?  

3. I need to read more about how stimulating the immune system in this way may affect us, which beneficial microorganisms may be harmed and which live happily alongside the immune cells without being targeted by them.  I'll have to do a lot of reading on this part.  
 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Adamkins IV

[Strange]

31 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

I'm pretty open minded but I know that we accumulate pathogens

HOW do you know this? Can you point to a reputable source that confirms this?

 

[Adamkins IV]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

HOW do you know this? Can you point to a reputable source that confirms this?

 

Um yes learn about any pathogen which humans commonly carry such as herpes, tuberculosis, toxoplasma, eyelash worms etc.  Learn that we are not born with them but people contract it as a certain point in their life from exposure to them.  E.g. if someone with eyelash worms rubs their eye, then shakes your hand, then you rub your eye, you've got them.  You can learn how all of these types of things are more common to have the older you are.  The reason is simply that the older we are the more often we are exposed to things, the more chance we have to contract them.  This is how microorganisms which live on or inside other organisms work, they spread between organisms.  It's a fact that a newborn baby has far fewer microorganisms living on and inside it than an elderly person, because the elderly person has collected many over their lifetime from exposure to them in the environment.  I know this.  I'm not going to bother linking a reputable source because it's not like it's some groundbreaking new discovery but you can easily read about this yourself.    

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Adamkins IV said:

Um yes learn about any pathogen which humans commonly carry such as herpes, tuberculosis, toxoplasma, eyelash worms etc.  Learn that we are not born with them but people contract it as a certain point in their life from exposure to them.  E.g. if someone with eyelash worms rubs their eye, then shakes your hand, then you rub your eye, you've got them.  You can learn how all of these types of things are more common to have the older you are.  The reason is simply that the older we are the more often we are exposed to things, the more chance we have to contract them.  This is how microorganisms which live on or inside other organisms work, they spread between organisms.  It's a fact that a newborn baby has far fewer microorganisms living on and inside it than an elderly person, because the elderly person has collected many over their lifetime from exposure to them in the environment.  I know this.  I'm not going to bother linking a reputable source because it's not like it's some groundbreaking new discovery but you can easily read about this yourself.    

It's the way scientific discussion is done, otherwise it's just hand waving.

[John Cuthber]

8 hours ago, Adamkins IV said:

I'm pretty open minded

LOL

[Adamkins IV]

17 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's the way scientific discussion is done, otherwise it's just hand waving.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that.  I believe that providing evidence is something which must be done when conducting one’s own original research.  Anyone who comes up with a new and original hypothesis may be asked for evidence to prove their hypothesis (as no one else has proven it yet) and then the onus of proof is on them to prove their hypothesis. 

I don’t have to prove to anyone that humans accumulate microorganisms and pathogens over their lifetime.  This is not my own original hypothesis, this is one of the very first things anyone will learn with an education in microbiology and I’m really not interested in discussing this point any further.  The only reason it was brought into question in the first place was to derail the thread and to try to cause an argument because some toxic and argumentative person was upset that I dared to state a fact which didn’t agree with what someone else had just said.    
 

There’s plenty of research papers which would show you that humans accumulate more and more pathogens with age, however the focus of the papers is usually something else because that in itself is such a fundamental and commonly established fact.  For example off the top of my head a recent paper I read on latent tuberculosis standardised the age of all participants in order to account for the fact that the older you are the more likely you are to have contracted TB or indeed any other pathogen by chance. 

If you need to learn that humans accumulate pathogens and microorganisms over their lifetime however I think it’s better to get some books on microorganisms from the local library than to look for research papers because I think some good books will give a very clear and in depth guide to this whilst a research paper won’t so much. 

 

That said I’m no longer interested in going off topic and having some kind of toxic argument about yes humans do accumulate pathogens no they don’t yes they do you’re stupid I hate u I’m so mad and angry ur so dumb and wrong blah blah blah etc. I’m also really not interested at all in toxic people who feel the need to derail the topic and attack me because they are so upset and offended that I stated a basic fact which I know.    

I’m busy and I really only want to see relevant information on:

1.  What’s the effect of purposely stimulating the immune system by exposure to an allergen, what effect does this have on the production and release of T-Cells and what’s the effect of this on internal pathogens in general and also specifically on toxoplasma cysts?   

2. What’s the effect of pure isolated histidine consumption on histamine levels, the subsequent effect on the immune system and on the production of T-Cells? 

3. Any other relevant knowledge which is related to: 
   -Other interesting ways to stimulate T-Cell release (yes I know improving many things in our  
       lifestyle and environment such as correcting a vitamin A deficiency but let’s assume I’m talking  
       about a person with a perfect diet and lifestyle already). 
   -Info on which beneficial microorganisms are harmed by a temporarily heightened immune
    system (1-2 weeks) and which are not.  I believe most have evolved to not be targeted by the
    immune system but to live alongside it?  I need to study much more about this.  Perhaps I’ll find a
    handy list or chart somewhere if I’m lucky, as well as more studies showing various effects caused
    by a heightened  immune system before, during, immediately after and some weeks or months     
    after 
  -Anything else to add sure I’d love to hear anything but not negative, not arguing, not insulting, not
   petty, not useless, on topic, open minded, and helpful towards what actually want to do or
   understand e.g. hypothesising how it could be possible in theory to kill a toxoplasma cyst.  Or
   better visualising the chain of events, the cause and effect, and the pros and cons of some of the
   ideas discussed such as trying to boost T-Cell count for only 1 or 2 weeks what might this do
   precisely?   
 

 

Again so much thanks to anyone who can actually give me some useful knowledge or even just things to think about or pointers in the right direction.    

[John Cuthber]

15 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

Again so much thanks to anyone who can actually give me some useful knowledge

People tried.

told them  they were wrong.

Then you told them that you were open minded.

 

15 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

I believe that providing evidence is something which must be done when conducting one’s own original research.

Great!
Now looking forward to your evidence that we don't throw off practically all the pathogens we meet.

 

17 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

Anyone who comes up with a new and original hypothesis may be asked for evidence to prove their hypothesis (as no one else has proven it yet) and then the onus of proof is on them to prove their hypothesis. 

Great!
Still looking forward to your evidence that we don't throw off practically all the pathogens we meet.

 

and so on.

[studiot]

 

19 hours ago, Adamkins IV said:

Um yes learn about any pathogen which humans commonly carry 

Can I just ask what you mean by pathogen here?

[Adamkins IV]

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

People tried.

told them  they were wrong.

Then you told them that you were open minded.

 

Great!
Now looking forward to your evidence that we don't throw off practically all the pathogens we meet.

 

Great!
Still looking forward to your evidence that we don't throw off practically all the pathogens we meet.

 

and so on.

No one tried.  No one has answered the questions.  Your responses are just taking up space and providing nothing.  Your words are not valuable at all.  If you can't provide anything then don't respond. The questions are these and they are still all unanswered.  I only need people who actually know about this and who can answer to respond.  I don't need anyone else to write in here.  


1.  What’s the effect of purposely stimulating the immune system by exposure to an allergen, what effect does this have on the production and release of T-Cells and what’s the effect of this on internal pathogens in general and also specifically on toxoplasma cysts?   

2. What’s the effect of pure isolated histidine consumption on histamine levels, the subsequent effect on the immune system and on the production of T-Cells? 

3. Any other relevant knowledge which is related to: 
   -Other interesting ways to stimulate T-Cell release (yes I know improving many things in our  
       lifestyle and environment such as correcting a vitamin A deficiency but let’s assume I’m talking  
       about a person with a perfect diet and lifestyle already). 
   -Info on which beneficial microorganisms are harmed by a temporarily heightened immune
    system (1-2 weeks) and which are not.  I believe most have evolved to not be targeted by the
    immune system but to live alongside it?  I need to study much more about this.  Perhaps I’ll find a
    handy list or chart somewhere if I’m lucky, as well as more studies showing various effects caused
    by a heightened  immune system before, during, immediately after and some weeks or months     
    after 
  -Anything else to add sure I’d love to hear anything but not negative, not arguing, not insulting, not
   petty, not useless, on topic, open minded, and helpful towards what actually want to do or
   understand e.g. hypothesising how it could be possible in theory to kill a toxoplasma cyst.  Or
   better visualising the chain of events, the cause and effect, and the pros and cons of some of the
   ideas discussed such as trying to boost T-Cell count for only 1 or 2 weeks what might this do
   precisely?   

 

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

There’s very little point in attempting an answer if your premise is flawed or unclear. You are required to support your claims. Please do so or this is going to be shut down. 

 

[Adamkins IV]

4 hours ago, studiot said:

 

Can I just ask what you mean by pathogen here?

By pathogen I mean absolutely any microorganism which can have a negative effect.  Humans accumulate them over time.  But as I said I'm not interested in discussing this, if you want to start a new topic on this..  but I just want my own questions answered here if anyone is knowledgeable in this such as someone who has a PHD who actually studies microorganisms and pathogens for their job and who would already have considered or came across all the things I'm talking about, who knows a lot more about it than I do so they can add to it, tell me things I obviously don't know and am overlooking, give me some different ideas etc.  I want to know about the following 

1.  What’s the effect of purposely stimulating the immune system by exposure to an allergen, what effect does this have on the production and release of T-Cells and what’s the effect of this on internal pathogens in general and also specifically on toxoplasma cysts?   

2. What’s the effect of pure isolated histidine consumption on histamine levels, the subsequent effect on the immune system and on the production of T-Cells? 

3. Any other relevant knowledge which is related to: 
   -Other interesting ways to stimulate T-Cell release (yes I know improving many things in our  
       lifestyle and environment such as correcting a vitamin A deficiency but let’s assume I’m talking  
       about a person with a perfect diet and lifestyle already). 
   -Info on which beneficial microorganisms are harmed by a temporarily heightened immune
    system (1-2 weeks) and which are not.  I believe most have evolved to not be targeted by the
    immune system but to live alongside it?  I need to study much more about this.  Perhaps I’ll find a
    handy list or chart somewhere if I’m lucky, as well as more studies showing various effects caused
    by a heightened  immune system before, during, immediately after and some weeks or months     
    after 
  -Anything else to add sure I’d love to hear anything but not negative, not arguing, not insulting, not
   petty, not useless, on topic, open minded, and helpful towards what actually want to do or
   understand e.g. hypothesising how it could be possible in theory to kill a toxoplasma cyst.  Or
   better visualising the chain of events, the cause and effect, and the pros and cons of some of the
   ideas discussed such as trying to boost T-Cell count for only 1 or 2 weeks what might this do
   precisely?   

7 minutes ago, hypervalent_iodine said:

!

Moderator Note

There’s very little point in attempting an answer if your premise is flawed or unclear. You are required to support your claims. Please do so or this is going to be shut down. 

 

I haven't made any claims in order to require to support them.  I'm asking the following in which no claim is made.  Either you can answer it or no one in these forums can (which seems to be the case)

1.  What’s the effect of purposely stimulating the immune system by exposure to an allergen, what effect does this have on the production and release of T-Cells and what’s the effect of this on internal pathogens in general and also specifically on toxoplasma cysts?   

2. What’s the effect of pure isolated histidine consumption on histamine levels, the subsequent effect on the immune system and on the production of T-Cells? 

3. Any other relevant knowledge which is related to: 
   -Other interesting ways to stimulate T-Cell release (yes I know improving many things in our  
       lifestyle and environment such as correcting a vitamin A deficiency but let’s assume I’m talking  
       about a person with a perfect diet and lifestyle already). 
   -Info on which beneficial microorganisms are harmed by a temporarily heightened immune
    system (1-2 weeks) and which are not.  I believe most have evolved to not be targeted by the
    immune system but to live alongside it?  I need to study much more about this.  Perhaps I’ll find a
    handy list or chart somewhere if I’m lucky, as well as more studies showing various effects caused
    by a heightened  immune system before, during, immediately after and some weeks or months     
    after 
  -Anything else to add sure I’d love to hear anything but not negative, not arguing, not insulting, not
   petty, not useless, on topic, open minded, and helpful towards what actually want to do or
   understand e.g. hypothesising how it could be possible in theory to kill a toxoplasma cyst.  Or
   better visualising the chain of events, the cause and effect, and the pros and cons of some of the
   ideas discussed such as trying to boost T-Cell count for only 1 or 2 weeks what might this do
   precisely?   

If no one has any knowledge on these things then it's OK I'm researching myself and I can ask the questions elsewhere too.  If anyone can answer the questions then I'd love to hear it.  That's all I don't want to discuss anything else because 1. I don't have the time and 2. I don't like people who try to only argue and be toxic online and derail a discussion away from what I actually wanted to find, it's a big waste of time.  Info/answers on these things specifically is all I want.  

Edited October 16, 2019 by Adamkins IV

[Strange]

7 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

I haven't made any claims in order to require to support them.

Oh really? What about:

4 hours ago, Adamkins IV said:

humans accumulate microorganisms and pathogens over their lifetime.

You are unable to support this claim. Others, who I know have some level of expertise in the subject, have refuted it.

 

You might be better trying some new age woo site, as you are clearly not interested in scientific answers. I'm sure you will find people there who share your wacky beliefs and will sell you some nonsense about drinking onion juice under the full moon, or something.

[Adamkins IV]

Just now, Strange said:

Oh really? What about:

You are unable to support this claim. Others, who I know have some level of expertise in the subject, have refuted it.

 

This is useless, you aren't answering my questions.  Every one of your replies are rubbish.  If all of your replies in here were collected together, written on a piece of paper and given to me, I'd throw it straight in the bin.  You've provided nothing.  So stop trying to derail the thread.  


I only want to hear from people who can respond on the following

1.  What’s the effect of purposely stimulating the immune system by exposure to an allergen, what effect does this have on the production and release of T-Cells and what’s the effect of this on internal pathogens in general and also specifically on toxoplasma cysts?   

2. What’s the effect of pure isolated histidine consumption on histamine levels, the subsequent effect on the immune system and on the production of T-Cells? 

3. Any other relevant knowledge which is related to: 
   -Other interesting ways to stimulate T-Cell release (yes I know improving many things in our  
       lifestyle and environment such as correcting a vitamin A deficiency but let’s assume I’m talking  
       about a person with a perfect diet and lifestyle already). 
   -Info on which beneficial microorganisms are harmed by a temporarily heightened immune
    system (1-2 weeks) and which are not.  I believe most have evolved to not be targeted by the
    immune system but to live alongside it?  I need to study much more about this.  Perhaps I’ll find a
    handy list or chart somewhere if I’m lucky, as well as more studies showing various effects caused
    by a heightened  immune system before, during, immediately after and some weeks or months     
    after 
  -Anything else to add sure I’d love to hear anything but not negative, not arguing, not insulting, not
   petty, not useless, on topic, open minded, and helpful towards what actually want to do or
   understand e.g. hypothesising how it could be possible in theory to kill a toxoplasma cyst.  Or
   better visualising the chain of events, the cause and effect, and the pros and cons of some of the
   ideas discussed such as trying to boost T-Cell count for only 1 or 2 weeks what might this do
   precisely?   

 

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

Oh really? What about:

You are unable to support this claim. Others, who I know have some level of expertise in the subject, have refuted it.

 

all youve done is cry that I said humans accumulate pathogens then continually try to argue with me and derail the thread.  What I in fact want is knowledge on stimulating activation of T-Cells, way to do this, specific details about the effects it may have etc.  I've no time to argue with people like you who wished to hijack the thread and turn it into an argument about a detail you're trying to nitpick which isn't the main question I'm asking, it's not what I came here to do.  It's a waste of my time.  With all due respect if you don't know anything about stimulating T-Cells and you refuse to or don't have the knowledge to answer on topic the questions I've clearly asked then stop responding in here.  

For the last time 

 

1.  What’s the effect of purposely stimulating the immune system by exposure to an allergen, what effect does this have on the production and release of T-Cells and what’s the effect of this on internal pathogens in general and also specifically on toxoplasma cysts?   

2. What’s the effect of pure isolated histidine consumption on histamine levels, the subsequent effect on the immune system and on the production of T-Cells? 

3. Any other relevant knowledge which is related to: 
   -Other interesting ways to stimulate T-Cell release (yes I know improving many things in our  
       lifestyle and environment such as correcting a vitamin A deficiency but let’s assume I’m talking  
       about a person with a perfect diet and lifestyle already). 
   -Info on which beneficial microorganisms are harmed by a temporarily heightened immune
    system (1-2 weeks) and which are not.  I believe most have evolved to not be targeted by the
    immune system but to live alongside it?  I need to study much more about this.  Perhaps I’ll find a
    handy list or chart somewhere if I’m lucky, as well as more studies showing various effects caused
    by a heightened  immune system before, during, immediately after and some weeks or months     
    after 
  -Anything else to add sure I’d love to hear anything but not negative, not arguing, not insulting, not
   petty, not useless, on topic, open minded, and helpful towards what actually want to do or
   understand e.g. hypothesising how it could be possible in theory to kill a toxoplasma cyst.  Or
   better visualising the chain of events, the cause and effect, and the pros and cons of some of the
   ideas discussed such as trying to boost T-Cell count for only 1 or 2 weeks what might this do
   precisely?   


I'll check back again in a day, I'm reading up and working on something else right now.  Either 1 person can actually answer these things or no one can, either way I'll get the info I need on all of these things eventually.  I'll do my own reading and find other places to ask too.  If tomorrow I come to a nice surprise where an intelligent person has actually answered these things in detail and explained some things to me it will be really amazing, I will love and appreciate it.  If what I expect from how people have spoken in here so far, that the thread will be filled with useless comments attacking me, providing no information or attempt to answer the questions I've asked, and the thread is locked and my account banned then lol. "science forums" yeah people pretending to be smart but with no actual knowledge.   Let's see what happens. 

[studiot]

23 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

But as I said I'm not interested in discussing this,

 

Do you consider this a constructive answer when you don't know why I asked the question?

I asked the question because the word pathogen has been employed to mean many different things,

Quote

In biology, a pathogen in the oldest and broadest sense, is anything that can produce disease. A pathogen may also be referred to as an infectious agent, or simply a germ. The term pathogen came into use in the 1880s. Wikipedia

 

In view of your arrogant responses to myself and others in defiance of the rules here I will simply refer you to a standard Biochemistry text, which contains the answers to your specific questions in section D (overview of the immune system), starting on page 77.

Biochemistry

Hames, Hooper and Houghton

Edited October 16, 2019 by studiot
spelling

[Adamkins IV]

Just now, studiot said:

 

Do you consider the a constructive answer when you don't know why I asked the question?

I asked the question because the worth pathogen has been employed to mean many different things,

 

In view of your arrogant responses to myself and others in defiance of the rules here I will simply refer you to a standard Biochemistry text, which contains the answers to your specific questions in section D (overview of the immune system), starting on page 77.

Biochemistry

Hames, Hooper and Houghton

I don't really have a problem with you.  But it's clear to me the other guy is trying to start an argument with me based around the fact I said humans accumulate microorganism and pathogens over their lifetime and is trying to completely derail the thread into an argument which isn't what I want.  Sure you can ask me what I mean by pathogen so you can better understand what I want to learn more about, I'm specifically interested in any microorganism with a negative effect:  bacteria, viruses, parasites, fungi (for non living microparticles which have negative effects I am referring to them as toxins and that's a whole other section I'm researching and writing about)  What you've said is useful to me because I'll jot that down and read that later:  Biochemistry page 77, Hames, Hooper, Houghton.  I'll see if it's in the library.   I don't see why you say I'm arrogant.  Why don't you read the quality of people's replies to me in here.  Only 1 person attempted to even engage with anything remotely what I was saying and offer something constructive, he said that stimulating the immune system can damage your health well I already knew that but he was saying something true, he didn't go into detail to say specifically many or some things which would happen by increasing T-Cell count so I didn't get much from that, but I appreciate he was talking on topic, and he said some pathogens purposely aggravate the immune system and that makes them more effective, that was interesting I've to read more about this because I hadn't considered that as much.  He said we don't accumulate pathogens, I responded in a completely non offensive way that we do accumulate them and I explained some things about that, though it was a bit off topic away from the questions I actually want people to give me some info on.  Then the thread derailed into people crying that I said we do accumulate pathogens....  Now you're the second person who has given me something useful, whilst the others were just trying to argue or give jabs at me.. so why am I the bad person here?   I'm not arrogant and I'm not stupid either and I don't have my time to waste with people who are trying to create some kind of online argument.  I think it's pathetic.  I'm not here as a 13 year old boy with an IQ of 80 looking to be told things and believe anything people say to me.  I work on my own research, I respect my own intelligence and brain and my own knowledge and opinions are just as valuable as anyone's in this thread.  If you think that's arrogant then I think there's some kind of elitist complex people have in here where they automatically assume they're very intelligent, yet no one answered my questions did they?  Has anyone responded as to how exposure to an allergen may effect T-Cell count and how this may affect internal pathogens?  No.  No one has.  It's a simple question I can't write it any clearer.  My questions must be very basic for anyone who actually works in or has a PHD in microbiology and tbh I thought someone could actually answer them quickly and efficiently.  But still no one has been able to.  I don't think people who actually study or work in the field of microbiology and immunology actually use this forum.  Just people who want to pretend they're smart but they can't answer some simple questions when given them.       

[Strange]

13 minutes ago, Adamkins IV said:

My questions must be very basic for anyone who actually works in or has a PHD in microbiology

I am fairly certain that you have had answers from at least one person with a PhD in microbiology (or close to it). But, of course, you have dismissed it because it wasn't what you wanted to hear.