UFO evidence and how it's handled.

[Moontanman]

Ok guys here it is, I know this is probably the wrong forum, I am so bad at choosing that, be that as it may, What I want to discuss here is not if the following sighting was real or not. This happened in 1952 and the subsequent years have resulted in at least some disagreement on the details. However, was the eyewitness and other evidence correctly handled or was it as i assert mishandled for whatever reason. If you comment one way or another please let us know why you think so. 

The Air force simply not knowing what the hell was happening is probably enough for them to have dropped the ball on this but here we go. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident

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Events of July 19–20[edit]

At 11:40 p.m. on Saturday, July 19, 1952, Edward Nugent, an air traffic controller at Washington National Airport (today Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport), spotted seven objects on his radar.[3] The objects were located 15 miles (24 km) south-southwest of the city; no known aircraft were in the area and the objects were not following any established flight paths. Nugent's superior, Harry Barnes, a senior air-traffic controller at the airport, watched the objects on Nugent's radarscope. He later wrote:

We knew immediately that a very strange situation existed . . . their movements were completely radical compared to those of ordinary aircraft.[4]

Barnes had two controllers check Nugent's radar; they found that it was working normally. Barnes then called National Airport's radar-equipped control tower; the controllers there, Howard Cocklin and Joe Zacko, said that they also had unidentified blips on their radar screen, and that they had seen "a bright light hovering in the sky...[it] took off, zooming away at incredible speed."[3] Cocklin told Zacko "Did you see that? What the hell was that?"[3]

At this point, other objects appeared in all sectors of the radarscope; when they moved over the White House and the United States Capitol, Barnes called Andrews Air Force Base, located 10 miles from National Airport. Although Andrews reported that they had no unusual objects on their radar, an airman soon called the base's control tower to report the sighting of a strange object. Airman William Brady, who was in the tower, then saw an "object which appeared to be like an orange ball of fire, trailing a tail . . . [it was] unlike anything I had ever seen before."[3] As Brady tried to alert the other personnel in the tower, the strange object "took off at an unbelievable speed."[3] On one of National Airport's runways, S.C. Pierman, a Capital Airlines pilot, was waiting in the cockpit of his DC-4 for permission to take off. After spotting what he believed to be a meteor, he was told that the control tower's radar had detected unknown objects closing in on his position. Pierman observed six objects — "white, tailless, fast-moving lights" — over a 14-minute period.[3] Pierman was in radio contact with Barnes during his sighting, and Barnes later related that "each sighting coincided with a pip we could see near his plane. When he reported that the light streaked off at a high speed, it disappeared on our scope."[5]

At Andrews Air Force Base, meanwhile, the control tower personnel were tracking on radar what some thought to be unknown objects, but others suspected, and in one instance were able to prove, were simply stars and meteors.[6] However, Staff Sgt. Charles Davenport observed an orange-red light to the south; the light "would appear to stand still, then make an abrupt change in direction and altitude . . . this happened several times."[5] At one point both radar centers at National Airport and the radar at Andrews Air Force Base were tracking an object hovering over a radio beacon. The object vanished in all three radar centers at the same time.[7] At 3 a.m., shortly before two United States Air Force F-94 Starfire jet fighters from New Castle Air Force Base in Delaware arrived over Washington, all of the objects vanished from the radar at National Airport. However, when the jets ran low on fuel and left, the objects returned, which convinced Barnes that "the UFOs were monitoring radio traffic and behaving accordingly." [5] The objects were last detected by radar at 5:30 a.m.

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Publicity and Air Force reaction[edit]

The sightings of July 19–20, 1952, made front-page headlines in newspapers around the nation. A typical example was the headline from the Cedar Rapids Gazette in Iowa. It read "SAUCERS SWARM OVER CAPITAL" in large black type.[8] By coincidence, USAF Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, the supervisor of the Air Force's Project Blue Book investigation into UFO sightings, was in Washington at the time. However, he did not learn about the sightings until Monday, July 21, when he read the headlines in a Washington-area newspaper.[9] After talking with intelligence officers at the Pentagon about the sightings, Ruppelt spent several hours trying to obtain a staff car so he could travel around Washington to investigate the sightings, but was refused as only generals and senior colonels could use staff cars. He was told that he could rent a taxicab with his own money; by this point Ruppelt was so frustrated that he left Washington and flew back to Blue Book's headquarters at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio.[10] Upon returning to Dayton, Ruppelt spoke with an Air Force radar specialist, Captain Roy James, who felt that unusual weather conditions could have caused the unknown radar targets.[11]

 

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Events of July 26–27[edit]

At 8:15 p.m. on Saturday, July 26, 1952, a pilot and stewardess on a National Airlines flight into Washington observed some strange lights above their plane. Within minutes, both radar centers at National Airport, and the radar at Andrews AFB, were tracking more unknown objects.[12] USAF master sergeant Charles E. Cummings visually observed the objects at Andrews, he later said that "these lights did not have the characteristics of shooting stars. There was [sic] no trails . . . they traveled faster than any shooting star I have ever seen." [5]

Meanwhile, Albert M. Chop, the press spokesman for Project Blue Book, arrived at National Airport and, due to security concerns, denied several reporters' requests to photograph the radar screens. He then joined the radar center personnel.[13] By this time (9:30 p.m.) the radar center was picking up unknown objects in every sector. At times the objects traveled slowly; at other times they reversed direction and moved across the radarscope at speeds calculated at up to 7,000 mph (11,250 km/h).[14] At 11:30 p.m., two U.S. Air Force F-94 Starfire jet fighters from New Castle Air Force Base in Delaware arrived over Washington. Captain John McHugo, the flight leader, was vectored towards the radar blips but saw nothing, despite repeated attempts.[15] However, his wingman, Lieutenant William Patterson, did see four white "glows" and chased them.[3] He later said that "I tried to make contact with the bogies below 1,000 feet. I was at my maximum speed...I ceased chasing them because I saw no chance of overtaking them."[3] According to Albert Chop, when ground control asked Patterson "if he saw anything", Patterson replied "'I see them now and they're all around me. What should I do?'...And nobody answered, because we didn't know what to tell him."[5]

After midnight on July 27, USAF Major Dewey Fournet, Project Blue Book's liaison at the Pentagon, and Lt. John Holcomb, a United States Navy radar specialist, arrived at the radar center at National Airport.[3] During the night, Lieutenant Holcomb received a call from the Washington National Weather Station. They told him that a slight temperature inversion was present over the city, but Holcomb felt that the inversion was not "nearly strong enough to explain the 'good and solid' returns" on the radarscopes.[15] Fournet relayed that all those present in the radar room were convinced that the targets were most likely caused by solid metallic objects. There had been weather targets on the scope too, he said, but this was a common occurrence and the controllers "were paying no attention to them."[16] Two more F-94s from New Castle Air Force Base were scrambled during the night. One pilot saw nothing unusual; the other pilot saw a white light which "vanished" when he moved towards it.[11] Additionally, "civilian planes flying into Washington reported seeing strange glowing objects in places where the radar was getting blips."[3] As on July 20, the sightings and unknown radar returns ended at sunrise.[17]

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Air Force explanation[edit]

To calm public anxiety over the wave of UFO reports,[20] answer the news media's questions about the sightings — and, hopefully, to slow down the numbers of UFO reports being sent to Blue Book, which were clogging normal intelligence channels — Air Force Major Generals John Samford, USAF Director of Intelligence, and Roger Ramey, USAF Director of Operations, held a well-attended press conference at the Pentagon on July 29, 1952.[21] It was the largest Pentagon press conference since World War II.[22] Press stories called Samford and Ramey the Air Force's two top UFO experts.[23]

Samford was heavily influenced by Captain Roy James, who had discussed the sightings with him earlier in the day and who also spoke at the conference. Samford declared that the visual sightings over Washington could be explained as misidentified aerial phenomena (such as stars or meteors). Samford also stated that the unknown radar targets could be explained by temperature inversion, which was present in the air over Washington on both nights the radar returns were reported.

In addition, Samford stated that the unknown radar contacts were not caused by solid material objects, and therefore posed no threat to national security. In response to a question as to whether the Air Force had recorded similar UFO radar contacts prior to the Washington incident, Samford said that there had been "hundreds" of such contacts where Air Force fighter interceptions had taken place, but stated they were all "fruitless." The conference proved to be successful "in getting the press off our backs", Ruppelt later wrote.[24]

Among the witnesses who supported Samford's explanation was the crew of a B-25 bomber, which had been flying over Washington during the sightings of July 26–27. The bomber was vectored several times by National Airport over unknown targets on the airport's radarscopes, yet the crew could see nothing unusual. Finally, as a crew member related, "the radar had a target which turned out to be the Wilson Lines steamboat trip to Mount Vernon... the radar was sure as hell picking up the steamboat."[25] Air Force Captain Harold May was in the radar center at Andrews AFB during the sightings of July 19–20. Upon hearing that National Airport's radar had picked up an unknown object heading in his direction, May stepped outside and saw "a light that was changing from red to orange to green to red again...at times it dipped suddenly and appeared to lose altitude." However, May eventually concluded that he was simply seeing a star that was distorted by the atmosphere, and that its "movement" was an illusion.[26] At 3 a.m. on July 27, an Eastern Airlines flight over Washington was told that an unknown object was in its vicinity; the crew could see nothing unusual. When they were told that the object had moved directly behind their plane, they began a sharp turn to try to see the object, but were told by National Airport's radar center that the object had "disappeared" when they began their turn.

At the request of the Air Force, the CAA's Technical Development and Evaluation Center did an analysis of the radar sightings. Their conclusion was that "a temperature inversion had been indicated in almost every instance when the unidentified radar targets or visual objects had been reported."[27] Project Blue Book would eventually label the unknown Washington radar blips as false images caused by temperature inversion, and the visual sightings as misidentified meteors, stars, and city lights.[3][28] In later years two prominent UFO skeptics, Dr. Donald Menzel, an astronomer at Harvard University, and Philip Klass, a senior editor for Aviation Week magazine, would also argue in favor of the temperature inversion/mirage hypothesis.[29] In 2002 Klass told a reporter that "radar technology in 1952 wasn't sophisticated enough to filter out many ordinary objects, such as flocks of birds, weather balloons, or temperature inversions."[5] The reporter added that "UFO proponents argue that even then seasoned controllers could differentiate between spurious targets and solid, metallic objects. Klass disagrees. It may be that 'we had two dumb controllers at National Airport on those nights'...[Klass] added that the introduction of digital filters in the 1970s led to a steep decline in UFO sightings on radar."[5]

Were the Airforce explanations reasonable when compared to the sightings? There is quite at the link! 

[koti]

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Ok guys here it is, I know this is probably the wrong forum, I am so bad at choosing that, be that as it may, What I want to discuss here is not if the following sighting was real or not. This happened in 1952 and the subsequent years have resulted in at least some disagreement on the details. However, was the eyewitness and other evidence correctly handled or was it as i assert mishandled for whatever reason. If you comment one way or another please let us know why you think so. 

The Air force simply not knowing what the hell was happening is probably enough for them to have dropped the ball on this but here we go. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_Washington,_D.C._UFO_incident

 

Were the Airforce explanations reasonable when compared to the sightings? There is quite at the link! 

Please don't hate me for this Moon but this seems to me like a complete waste of time.

I'm thinking like this...why haven't we seen high resolution photos and videos of UFO's lately? (last 10 or 15 years or so)
There are millions uppon millions of people walking around literally everywhere 24/7 on the planet everyday with powerful telephoto lenses with 20 mpixel+ sensors attached to them. We have satellites which can pinpoint meter large objects from orbit, we have GPS to track everything, drones with 4K cameras flying everywhere and thats the tech which you can buy at Aliexpress and 12 year olds are using it every day, milllions uppon millions of people every day - 24/7.
It looks to me like UFO's and aliens are real good at avoiding getting caught for the past 10 or 15 years. Ofcourse when radio and primitive radar were the only "state of the art" technologies available, we had UFO sightings everywhere all the time. It looks to me like the little green men are very afraid of the 130 million canon EF lenses sold between 1987-2017 and hundreds of millions of Nikkor's, Sony's and Sigma's  

[Strange]

12 hours ago, Moontanman said:

The Air force simply not knowing what the hell was happening is probably enough for them to have dropped the ball on this but here we go. 

And once again, some low-quality evidence with several plausible natural explanations. Yes, it remains unexplained. So what?

I can't see how you can say the Air Force dropped the ball. They investigated, found there wasn't enough evidence for a definitive explanation and noted the possible causes.

I'm not sure what else you wan't. 

9 hours ago, koti said:

I'm thinking like this...why haven't we seen high resolution photos and videos of UFO's lately? (last 10 or 15 years or so)

This is a really, really good point.

There have been some absolutely amazing footage of meteors, rocket launches and other atmospheric events (a lot of them from Russian dash-cams, partly because insurance fraud is so common there). And yet not s single video of an alien spacecraft. 

This should be the end of UFO theories. 

[StringJunky]

The bar ufo sightings have to jump is scientific peer review.

[Moontanman]

12 hours ago, koti said:

Please don't hate me for this Moon but this seems to me like a complete waste of time.

I'm thinking like this...why haven't we seen high resolution photos and videos of UFO's lately? (last 10 or 15 years or so)

There are millions uppon millions of people walking around literally everywhere 24/7 on the planet everyday with powerful telephoto lenses with 20 mpixel+ sensors attached to them.

We have satellites which can pinpoint meter large objects from orbit, we have GPS to track everything, drones with 4K cameras flying everywhere and thats the tech which you can buy at Aliexpress and 12 year olds are using it every day, milllions uppon millions of people every day - 24/7.

We have, in fact the up tick has been extreme but all are dismissed as too good to be true, photoshop makes any modern UFO photos suspect immediately, and i agree with that... 

 

Quote

It looks to me like UFO's and aliens are real good at avoiding getting caught for the past 10 or 15 years. Ofcourse when radio and primitive radar were the only "state of the art" technologies available, we had UFO sightings everywhere all the time. It looks to me like the little green men are very afraid of the 130 million canon EF lenses sold between 1987-2017 and hundreds of millions of Nikkor's, Sony's and Sigma's  

Modern Radar picks them up as well and modern pilots still report them... 

Again, not trying to prove anything, just trying to figure out the accuracy of the handling of this one report. 

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The bar ufo sightings have to jump is scientific peer review.

As soon as scientific evidence is available I would love to see that. 

3 hours ago, Strange said:

And once again, some low-quality evidence with several plausible natural explanations. Yes, it remains unexplained. So what?

I would like to hear the plausible natural explanations for the visual aspects of this sighting, including the jet fighter than was surrounded by the glows. 

Quote

from the above links:

 

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I can't see how you can say the Air Force dropped the ball. They investigated, found there wasn't enough evidence for a definitive explanation and noted the possible causes.

The air force lumped the entire sighting under atmospheric inversions, multiple independent visual, multiple independent radar, interaction with military and civilian aircraft all under the heading of temperature inversion. I think this was a stretch to say the least. BTW, phone lines were jammed by civilians not aware of the military involvement or the radar operators. In fact that was one reason the air force went bananas on this one thinking this could interfere if a soviet attack occurred...   

Quote

I'm not sure what else you wan't. 

This is a really, really good point.

There have been some absolutely amazing footage of meteors, rocket launches and other atmospheric events (a lot of them from Russian dash-cams, partly because insurance fraud is so common there). And yet not s single video of an alien spacecraft. 

This should be the end of UFO theories. 

Strange, I have seen videos from dash board cams and hi resolution drone cams and personal cams, in this age of photo shop these become suspect immediately and rightly so.

This one comment by Klass pretty much says it all:

Quote

The reporter added that "UFO proponents argue that even then seasoned controllers could differentiate between spurious targets and solid, metallic objects. Klass disagrees. It may be that 'we had two dumb controllers at National Airport on those nights'...[Klass] added that the introduction of digital filters in the 1970s led to a steep decline in UFO sightings on radar."eld 

 A personal attack by on of the famous debunkers and a statement that while accurate is highly misleading since a decline doesn't mean they vanished and in fact if true, means that modern radar sightings of which there are many, should hold more weight yet they evidently do not. Possibly those dumb radar operators are still with us...

What I am trying to show here is the idea that the air force never really did anything but push pelacanism as hard as they could to explain away any sighting they could not easily show a reason for... BTW I've seen Venus dance around the sky during an inversion, which happen quite regularly where I live and to mistake it for a UFO is ludicris... 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Moontanman

[Roamer]

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

What I am trying to show here is the idea that the air force never really did anything but push pelacanism as hard as they could to explain away any sighting they could not easily show a reason for...

 

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, Roamer said:

 

I hadn't seen that one! pretty  good, even Allen J Hynek agreed with me, swamp gas was his finest hour... 

[koti]

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I hadn't seen that one! pretty  good, even Allen J Hynek agreed with me, swamp gas was his finest hour... 

Thats the second time today something isn’t funny to me at all.

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, koti said:

Thats the second time today something isn’t funny to me at all.

We can't all have the same funny bones. 

[Moontanman]

53 minutes ago, koti said:

Thats the second time today something isn’t funny to me at all.

J. Allen Hynek was the US Air Force's chief debunker he was semi famous for saying a particular UFO sighting was swamp gas back in the 60's  Hynek eventually became one of the chief supporters of the ET theory of at least some UFOs after he realised how the Air Force was using him and his credentials to debunk instead of investigate UFOs.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek

[Roamer]

On 10/23/2019 at 12:02 AM, Moontanman said:

instead of investigate UFOs.  

The job of the US Airforce is to protect US airspace from hostile action, not to investigate EVERYTHING in the air, and especially not to address civilian complaints about aliens using complicated machinery to have butt-sex with them. Having a small debunking-team so the rest of the USAF can focus on their (core-)job falls perfectly in line with this.

So i have to ask: what's your point ?

Are you claiming a cover-up ? Would be quite likely in the case of actual aliens, but it would mean there would be more aliens ready to be discovered, search for them instead of hoping to gain access to area 51.

Do you want an organisation investigating aliens ? Maybe better not having it be a government-agency because they re not going to be too competent in it. (At least not untill actual aliens  have been found)

[Moontanman]

18 hours ago, Roamer said:

The job of the US Airforce is to protect US airspace from hostile action, not to investigate EVERYTHING in the air, and especially not to address civilian complaints about aliens using complicated machinery to have butt-sex with them. Having a small debunking-team so the rest of the USAF can focus on their (core-)job falls perfectly in line with this.

This attitude is exactly what the problem consists of, the immediate dismissal and ridicule of anyone who has a sighting. well done... well done...  

18 hours ago, Roamer said:

So i have to ask: what's your point ?

My point is that a scientific, neutral, investigation has never been done. The first ever military investigation was pretty good, they came to an odd conclusion, interplanetary space craft, but that was more than a bit flawed but at least it was honest.  

18 hours ago, Roamer said:

Are you claiming a cover-up ? Would be quite likely in the case of actual aliens, but it would mean there would be more aliens ready to be discovered, search for them instead of hoping to gain access to area 51.

Yes, I am claiming a cover up!

18 hours ago, Roamer said:

Do you want an organisation investigating aliens ? Maybe better not having it be a government-agency because they re not going to be too competent in it. (At least not untill actual aliens  have been found)

Yes I think an organization, a fair and scientific investigation that goes on and doesn't stop because one sighting can be explained.  An accredited university of excellent reputation should have a department dedicated to this.

 

UFOs might be technology from some place else but the answer just might be more interesting than that and involve natural phenomena we are totally unaware of or even involve aspects of the human mind we currently have no clue about. 

Ta say UFOs are nothing but some redneck hillbilly with an anal fetish is insulting  on a level with racism. I'm a hillbilly are you a clueless flatlander? Want to exchange insults all day or read the OP and either react or go on because you have personally insulted me... 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

This attitude is exactly what the problem consists of, the immediate dismissal and ridicule of anyone who has a sighting. well done... well done... 

And this attitude of claiming that a statement of the obvious fact that people have proper jobs to do (rather than spend time investigating things for which there is insufficient evidence to draw any conclusion) is "dismissal" or "ridiculing" is the problem with UFO nuts.

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

My point is that a scientific, neutral, investigation has never been done.

It as been done lots of times. The answer is always "there are plausible mundane explanations (but sometimes not information to be sure of which)" or "there is insufficient information to reach any conclusion".

What you mean is "an investigation that reaches the conclusions I want has never been done". Well, there is a reason for that. Science doesn't reach the conclusions you want; even if there isn't enough evidence to reach any other conclusion.

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Yes, I am claiming a cover up!

And do you have any evidence for that? No, of course not. Except the fact that no one has found the evidence you want.

There is no cover up because there is nothing to cover up.

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

An accredited university of excellent reputation should have a department dedicated to this.

And who is going to pay for it?

 

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

UFOs might be technology from some place else but the answer just might be more interesting than that and involve natural phenomena we are totally unaware of or even involve aspects of the human mind we currently have no clue about.

There is absolutely no reason to think either of those things, based on the evidence available.

[Roamer]

I didn't ridicule you Moontanman, i ridiculed the USAF in my first post(which "somebody" seemed to like) and explained their attitude in my second post.

20 hours ago, Roamer said:

So i have to ask: what's your point ?

Are you claiming a cover-up ? Would be quite likely in the case of actual aliens, but it would mean there would be more aliens ready to be discovered, search for them instead of hoping to gain access to area 51.

Do you want an organisation investigating aliens ? Maybe better not having it be a government-agency because they re not going to be too competent in it. (At least not untill actual aliens  have been found)

These are two (different) points, if you 're trying to make them both, you should probably make two threads.

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Yes I think an organization, a fair and scientific investigation that goes on and doesn't stop because one sighting can be explained.  An accredited university of excellent reputation should have a department dedicated to this.

If UFO's belong to any intelligent community(either alien or foreign) they would be trying to stay hidden, hence (pure)scientific research would be inadequate to unmask them, investigators would need to be hunters, like criminal investigators are(supposed to be).

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Ta say UFOs are nothing but some redneck hillbilly with an anal fetish is insulting  on a level with racism. I'm a hillbilly are you a clueless flatlander? Want to exchange insults all day or read the OP and either react or go on because you have personally insulted me... 

Rascism focuses on who somebody is, not on what they say.   I know a flatlander, he always tells me the earth is flat, and i smile and agree with him, then i go on with my life because disagreeing with him ain't worth my time, a bit like the USAF does with UFO-theorists.

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

And this attitude of claiming that a statement of the obvious fact that people have proper jobs to do (rather than spend time investigating things for which there is insufficient evidence to draw any conclusion) is "dismissal" or "ridiculing" is the problem with UFO nuts.

I number of accredited scientists investigate UFO sightings at the risk of their academic standings, J. Allen Hynek was one of them.  

1 hour ago, Strange said:

It as been done lots of times. The answer is always "there are plausible mundane explanations (but sometimes not information to be sure of which)" or "there is insufficient information to reach any conclusion".

Lots of times? Then it should be easy for you to name a few serious scientific studies... 

1 hour ago, Strange said:

What you mean is "an investigation that reaches the conclusions I want has never been done". Well, there is a reason for that. Science doesn't reach the conclusions you want; even if there isn't enough evidence to reach any other conclusion.

Again no such study has ever been done, a study should not begin with the conclusion that UFOs are bs then try to support that conclusion. The Condon Report is a prime example.  

1 hour ago, Strange said:

And do you have any evidence for that? No, of course not. Except the fact that no one has found the evidence you want.

Quite the contrary the cover up is obvious, Many scientists have supported this, J Allen Hynek stopped working for the US Air Force when he began to realise that no investigation was going onely an effort to explain away any sighting in anyway possible often by ridicule and nonsense.    

1 hour ago, Strange said:

There is no cover up because there is nothing to cover up.

So say you, a great many others, scientists included would disagree. Now I would be the first to say the cover up might not involve little green men but the is nonetheless a coverup. 

1 hour ago, Strange said:

And who is going to pay for it?

The Military just admitted to a 22 million dollar study that didn't exist until it was exposed... 

1 hour ago, Strange said:

 

There is absolutely no reason to think either of those things, based on the evidence available.

The was absolutely no evidence rocks fell fro the sky until someone investigated, there was no evidence that a needle floating in water had any reason to investigate either. 

[StringJunky]

19 hours ago, Moontanman said:

This attitude is exactly what the problem consists of, the immediate dismissal and ridicule of anyone who has a sighting. well done... well done...  

My point is that a scientific, neutral, investigation has never been done. The first ever military investigation was pretty good, they came to an odd conclusion, interplanetary space craft, but that was more than a bit flawed but at least it was honest.  

Yes, I am claiming a cover up!

Yes I think an organization, a fair and scientific investigation that goes on and doesn't stop because one sighting can be explained.  An accredited university of excellent reputation should have a department dedicated to this.

 

UFOs might be technology from some place else but the answer just might be more interesting than that and involve natural phenomena we are totally unaware of or even involve aspects of the human mind we currently have no clue about. 

Ta say UFOs are nothing but some redneck hillbilly with an anal fetish is insulting  on a level with racism. I'm a hillbilly are you a clueless flatlander? Want to exchange insults all day or read the OP and either react or go on because you have personally insulted me... 

 

16 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I number of accredited scientists investigate UFO sightings at the risk of their academic standings, J. Allen Hynek was one of them.  

Lots of times? Then it should be easy for you to name a few serious scientific studies... 

Again no such study has ever been done, a study should not begin with the conclusion that UFOs are bs then try to support that conclusion. The Condon Report is a prime example.  

Quite the contrary the cover up is obvious, Many scientists have supported this, J Allen Hynek stopped working for the US Air Force when he began to realise that no investigation was going onely an effort to explain away any sighting in anyway possible often by ridicule and nonsense.    

So say you, a great many others, scientists included would disagree. Now I would be the first to say the cover up might not involve little green men but the is nonetheless a coverup. 

The Military just admitted to a 22 million dollar study that didn't exist until it was exposed... 

The was absolutely no evidence rocks fell fro the sky until someone investigated, there was no evidence that a needle floating in water had any reason to investigate either. 

The question you want to ask is "How fast can a species evolve?" and are we, Homo sapien sapiens, the most evolved? To date it appears we are, then space travel is limited to what we can do now and ET's won't be very likely in our neighbourhood. You have to find a plausible mechanism before any phenomena can reasonably be expected to be investigated scientifically. It seems to me you have taken an arbitrarally chosen position that they have been in our vicinity.

Edited November 4, 2019 by StringJunky

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

 

The question you want to ask is "How fast can a species evolve?" and are we, Homo sapien sapiens, the most evolved? To date it appears we are, then space travel is limited to what we can do now and ET's won't be very likely in our neighbourhood. You have to find a plausible mechanism before any phenomena can reasonably be expected to be investigated scientifically. It seems to me you have taken an arbitrarally chosen position that they have been in our vicinity.

I can make a very credible argument as to how and why aliens might be nearby... near enough to be interested in us, but that is not what this is about...

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I can make a very credible argument as to how and why aliens might be nearby... near enough to be interested in us, but that is not what this is about...

But given our current understanding of physics there is no credible argument for how aliens could visit us; so what is there to cover up? 

Which would also explain a lack of properly funded scientific studies, beyond SETI. 

[Moontanman]

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

But given our current understanding of physics there is no credible argument for how aliens could visit us; so what is there to cover up? 

Which would also explain a lack of properly funded scientific studies, beyond SETI. 

Not true, in fact with technology like ours we could travel to other stars, you need to stop watching star wars... 

In the too weird category! 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/01/14/did-iranian-fighters-battle-ufos/#26f5c1791a32

Edited November 4, 2019 by Moontanman

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Not ture, in fact with technology like ours we could travel to other stars, you need to stop watching star wars...

Well, we do have a drone on its way, but that's a far cry from us getting there with the capability of carrying a stealth jet, just in case we need to investigate a planet with a similar technology...

Why would we investigate such a planet?

When, if discovered, that civilisation would galvanise it's planetary resources to investigate us; with a view to eliminate a potential threat.

[koti]

18 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Not true, in fact with technology like ours we could travel to other stars, you need to stop watching star wars... 

In the too weird category! 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/01/14/did-iranian-fighters-battle-ufos/#26f5c1791a32

I thought this insight by Ray Kurzweil was interesting:
 

 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

I can make a very credible argument as to how and why aliens might be nearby... near enough to be interested in us, but that is not what this is about...

Ultamately, the bar to get over is scientific review and if it can't get passed that it's a non-starter. Conspiracy theories of institutional cover up is a fairly typical defence of those who believe something  that is not generally accepted..

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Ultamately, the bar to get over is scientific review and if it can't get passed that it's a non-starter. Conspiracy theories of institutional cover up is a fairly typical defence of those who believe something  that is not generally accepted..

Ultimately deciding ahead of time something is bunk is not science... 

 

[StringJunky]

Just now, Moontanman said:

Ultimately deciding ahead of time something is bunk is not science... 

 

No, not having evidence that passes scientific scrutiny.

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Well, we do have a drone on its way, but that's a far cry from us getting there with the capability of carrying a stealth jet, just in case we need to investigate a planet with a similar technology...

Why would we investigate such a planet?

When, if discovered, that civilisation would galvanise it's planetary resources to investigate us; with a view to eliminate a potential threat.

 

My idea is that aliens are already here, slow boats from one stars oort cloud to another in rotating habitats where they live in lieu of planets. They avoid gravity wells and take thousands of years to travel slowly from one chunk of icy debris to another. sometimes, if they have the need and the icy chunk is big enough, they build another colony and continue on. Stumbling upon a planetary system with aboriginal life probably triggers some of them to investigate like we do when we find a new island with primitive humans.  

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

No, not having evidence that passes scientific scrutiny.

How can you get scientific evidence of something that we can't get a piece of but we can get radar images, photographs, and video not to mention hundreds of multiple independent eyewitnesses. Even damaged equipment from cars to airplanes. Do you really expect such a civilization drop off a piece of the aircraft by accident?   I lived under the landing pattern of a medium size airport, air force one often did touch and goes there. Jets would come so low then landing I could see the pilots very clearly. A few times Harrier Jets floated by do slow and low I could hit have them with a rock! 

Never, not once,

did a piece of an airplane fall off!

How do you investigate a phenomenon like that? 

J Allen Hynek said the air force was hiding evidence that absolutely proved at last a few UFOs were extraterrestrial.