Moving charges in a vacuum

[Ali Lama]

 Imagine two streams of identical charges moving (anti-parallel,   parallel and opposite in direction) in a vacuum away from any opposite charges influence like as in wires etc.     The two streams are close enough to  each other that both the magnetic field and electric field are present. In their own frame of reference, there is an electric field of repulsion and a magnetic field of attraction between the streams to my knowledge. 

1.  Will the charges stay parallel?  2. Will they get close and closer until?   3.  Will they be repelled more and more?   4.  ?

Thank you.

[swansont]

You would need to analyze the electrostatic and magnetic forces. Is this homework?

[Ali Lama]

No it is not. I reworded and rephrased my question.  I recognized how I should phrase my question after I read your reply to my previous post.

Psychologically it is an unfinished business for me.  I never finished and I couldn't finish school because they shoved more down my throat before I could truly swallow and understand the first bite.  But If I went to school now, they will throw me out because I will bother everyone too much.  Thanks to the internet.  Now at least I have a chance to know how things behave but it is very difficult to understand why, save for certain things here and there. 

I am very confused about other matters as well.

How parallel wires are attracted to each when the current flow in the same direction. and repel when the charges are anti parallel.

Here is what I see in the first one the parallel one.

The electrons in each wire have no magnetic field between them as they are in equal velocity, same direction and must look stationary to each other wire so there can only be electric repulsion between the electrons of each wire in relation to the other,  the same goes with the holes of each wire in relation to the other.  

And in regard to our frame of reference The electric field within each wire is zero due to the total charges in each of the wire being equal.

So now comes the question of relationship of electrons of one wire to the holes of the other and of course the electrons of the second wire to the holes of the first wire, in that relationship the charges are moving in opposite direction which I would think imply attraction because their magnetic field lines move in the same direction.  Electrons moving one way is the same as holes moving the opposite way, both have the same magnetic field orientation.  If holes come out of the screen it would be the same as electrons moving into the screen. Then there is the electric field between these.  which would imply attraction as well.

So in the first paragraph above there is repulsion between  the stationary aspect of the charges of each wires.  Magnetic field being zero and repulsion due to same electric charges assuming some net charges being opposite between each wire. Electrons repelling the electrons of the other wire and hole repelling the holes of the other wires.  Total sum repulsion.

In the second paragraph, things look in favor of attraction.    So shouldn't all zero out. I don't know. 

Is the picture in my head all out of whack or is there some sense to it?  It must be since the experiment shows the facts.  Perphaps it is the explanation that has not been given to me correctly or I have misunderstood the concept and what I have said above is incorrect. 

 

I don't know if the charges in one wire view the other wire having zero sum electric field within that wire.  Just because in our frame of reference there is no electric field inside a wire, maybe outside of it, I would think.    These experiments are done with DC current, the attraction and repulsion of wires.

So that is where I figured I just isolate the charges and I have began to realize that I have opened another  kind of can of worms.  Two same charge particles moving in parallel and anti parallel and see what happens.  And two opposite charge particles moving in parallel and antiparticle and see what happen away from other influences.   Things don't appear to be neat and straight forward. 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Ali Lama

[Ali Lama]

On 10/24/2019 at 8:28 AM, Ali Lama said:

 Imagine two streams of identical charges moving (anti-parallel,   parallel and opposite in direction) in a vacuum away from any opposite charges influence like as in wires etc.     The two streams are close enough to  each other that both the magnetic field and electric field are present. In their own frame of reference, there is an electric field of repulsion and a magnetic field of attraction between the streams to my knowledge. 

1.  Will the charges stay parallel?  2. Will they get close and closer until?   3.  Will they be repelled more and more?   4.  ?

Thank you.

When I got up this morning all the answers have popped in my head this morning.  I have it by golly.

1.  Current moving through a wire creates circular magnetic field around the wire.  Electrons one way and holes the other way.  Both movement have the same magnetic field orientation from our frame of reference.

2.  Another wire next to it in parallel will have the same magnetic field orientation so the two wires will be drawn towards each other.

3. If one wire is anti-parallel then the wires will repel because their magnetic fields do not have the same orientation. 

4.  If you shoot a beam of alike particles, as long as they are moving they will stay on track and keep going like baby ducks, such as" keep your ducks in a row", their magnetic fields are aligned.   

5. If you shoot another beam of the same charge next to it, they will join together and keep on going.

6.  If you shoot another beam of the same charge anti-parallel, the beams will repel because their magnetic fields will be opposite.  

7.  In a conductor such as copper, with a little EMF them valence electrons will get going in one direction with their magnetic fields aligned creating magnetic field around the wire. In an iron there are lots of electrons that are already aligned and if you run current through trillions of these atoms in one chunk, there comes a point that lots of electrons will align themselves and you get I guess what they call magnetic moment and you have a magnet. Depending on its make up and other things, determines the durability, temperature range etc and intensity of their magnetism. 

What do you think?

Edited October 25, 2019 by Ali Lama

[studiot]

10 hours ago, Ali Lama said:

So that is where I figured I just isolate the charges and I have began to realize that I have opened another  kind of can of worms.  Two same charge particles moving in parallel and anti parallel and see what happens.  And two opposite charge particles moving in parallel and antiparticle and see what happen away from other influences.   Things don't appear to be neat and straight forward. 

 

It's good that you have ditched the last thread and are actively trying to engage with others about your issue in this one.

 

In that spirit I will respond by starting at the beginning to help you overcome some factors you clearly don't realise.

Since most treatments consider current in wires, I was going to ask you what your interest in a stream of charged particles over wires so thank you for already answering that.

There is a difference between the current in wires and the conditions you have set out.

Have you considered how you might obtain a stream of particles under this particular condition  "see what happen away from other influences." ?
Note there will be zero current in wires operating under this particular condition.

Out of interest have you heard of Oersted's experiment?

[Ali Lama]

46 minutes ago, studiot said:

 

It's good that you have ditched the last thread and are actively trying to engage with others about your issue in this one.

 

In that spirit I will respond by starting at the beginning to help you overcome some factors you clearly don't realise.

Since most treatments consider current in wires, I was going to ask you what your interest in a stream of charged particles over wires so thank you for already answering that.

There is a difference between the current in wires and the conditions you have set out.

Have you considered how you might obtain a stream of particles under this particular condition  "see what happen away from other influences." ?
Note there will be zero current in wires operating under this particular condition.

Out of interest have you heard of Oersted's experiment?

I was aware of the behavior of parallel wires.  It was the reasoning that wasn't clear in my head.

In regard to isolating charges.  One way to find out I guess would be to use an electron gun and shoot a stream of electrons and another gun next to it and shoot another beam parallel and anti-parallel next to the first beam and see what happens.  I suppose they can do it at CERN as well.  I asked the gentleman in the YouTube if he would be able to run the experiment. 

 

 

[studiot]

45 minutes ago, Ali Lama said:

 

In regard to isolating charges.  One way to find out I guess would be to use an electron gun and shoot a stream of electrons and another gun next to it and shoot another beam parallel and anti-parallel next to the first beam and see what happens.  I suppose they can do it at CERN as well.  I asked the gentleman in the YouTube if he would be able to run the experiment. 

How do you "shoot an anti parallel beam from a gun alongside the other one?

Surely the guns must be facing each other across a gap in space?

But more than this, what keeps the beam going and what keeps it together?

 

45 minutes ago, Ali Lama said:

I was aware of the behavior of parallel wires.  It was the reasoning that wasn't clear in my head.

The important part about the wires is that they perform two functions.

1) They keep the electrons within the tight region of space required.

2) But the contravene your condition since there must be a longitudinal electric field or there would be no current.

Yes posting  the bit about Oersted's experiment leads on from this to the fact that in antiparallel there is no magnetic field.
This fact is used in what is known as non inductive winding of power resistors and bifilar winding of transformers to reduce losses and distortion.

But back to basics.

1 hour ago, Ali Lama said:

Current moving through a wire creates circular magnetic field around the wire.  Electrons one way and holes the other way.  Both movement have the same magnetic field orientation from our frame of reference.

How does the absence of something (holes) create a magnetic field?

Of course you can't fire holes from a hole gun and in general metal conductors don't have holes.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by studiot

[Ali Lama]

55 minutes ago, studiot said:

How do you "shoot an anti parallel beam from a gun alongside the other one?

Surely the guns must be facing each other across a gap in space?

But more than this, what keeps the beam going and what keeps it together?

..............................................................................................................

1. I suppose you could shoot an electron beam from the opposite inside the region where the other is for anti parallel and for parallel from the same side.  Naturally you would need to electron guns.

***************************************************************************************

The important part about the wires is that they perform two functions.

1) They keep the electrons within the tight region of space required.

2) But the contravene your condition since there must be a longitudinal electric field or there would be no current.

Yes posting  the bit about Oersted's experiment leads on from this to the fact that in antiparallel there is no magnetic field.
This fact is used in what is known as non inductive winding of power resistors and bifilar winding of transformers to reduce losses and distortion.

.........................................................................................................................................................................

Perhaps the reason there is no magnetic field between anti-parallel wires is because the magnetic fields of each wire with the other having different orientation cancels each other out when they are drawn and is in each other's vicinity. 

The EMF forces the loose valence electrons to move along in the wire and all having the same same magnetic field orientation and that orientation keeps them together moving along the same direction.

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But back to basics.

How does the absence of something (holes) create a magnetic field?

Of course you can't fire holes from a hole gun and in general metal conductors don't have holes.

........................................................................................................................

yea the hole business is not actual that is for sure, I basically meant as they describe it in terms of positive charge moving.  

 However in some settings and I forget now what the situation is, I was reading about it the other day does have an existence, plays a part.  I will see if I can find out and I will put it here.   It is kind of like virtual photons, what is that?  

"Ørsted's law only holds for steady currents, which don't change with time. Therefore, it only holds for DC electric circuits, with no capacitors or inductors. It can be seen that it fails for time varying currents by considering the case of a circuit consisting of a battery charging a capacitor through a resistor. It can be verified experimentally that the current in this circuit creates a magnetic field, yet any closed curve encircling the conductor can be spanned by a surface passing between the capacitor plates, through which no current passes, from which the equation would give zero magnetic field. Ørsted's law was modified by Maxwell to cover the case of time-varying currents by adding a new source term called displacement current, giving the Ampere-Maxwell equation."

I have been in the middle of watching this which relates to what you are saying.

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Ali Lama

[studiot]

53 minutes ago, Ali Lama said:

1. I suppose you could shoot an electron beam from the opposite inside the region where the other is for anti parallel and for parallel from the same side.  Naturally you would need to electron guns.

Yes but you also want no  other influence in that region.

and you did not consider my question about what keeps the beam together and what keeps it going.

 

I am glad you are dealing well with my questions, they are not meant to trip you up but to help you think about your set.
That way you can understand it better and tidy up on your description.

 

Normally there is an electric field in that region in an electron tube the beam occurs because there is a very high anode voltage directing it.

Special anodes can be made to allow some of the beam to be going so fast that it passes straight through the anode and then it is on its own.
Because it is going so fast it has substantial momentum and this keeps the beam going and together for quite a distance.

 

Just a quick comment on swansont's pinch effect.

This is what keeps a beam together in fluid metals (mercury) or plasma (several attempts at nuclear fusion have been made using this)

It is called the self-magnetic pinch effect and was first reported by Northruff in 1907.
But it is within the body of the beam, not external it.

That's probably me finished for tonight, but I will be back.

[Ali Lama]

21 hours ago, studiot said:

Yes but you also want no  other influence in that region.

and you did not consider my question about what keeps the beam together and what keeps it going.

 

I am glad you are dealing well with my questions, they are not meant to trip you up but to help you think about your set.
That way you can understand it better and tidy up on your description.

 

Normally there is an electric field in that region in an electron tube the beam occurs because there is a very high anode voltage directing it.

Special anodes can be made to allow some of the beam to be going so fast that it passes straight through the anode and then it is on its own.
Because it is going so fast it has substantial momentum and this keeps the beam going and together for quite a distance.

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I would think there has to be means of propelling the electrons, be it  by means of magnetism, anodes or whatever.  Such force has to be strong enough to give the electrons enough velocity so that there is sufficient magnetic field (aligned)  around them to keep them together as their electric charge would keep them repelled.  Furthermore I would think that with enough force applied the electrons spin may also end up in the same direction.   I don't know,  but I doubt if a beam of electrons can be formed with them having every which way spin,  maybe as current in wires their spin don't play any role.  

In the mean time at present my opinion looks like this.  A beam of electrons have magnetic field in the same as in a wire.   If one can project two electron beams parallel and the beams are close enough that both are within the magnetic field of the other, they will attract/merge.  Anti-parallel the beams will repel/diverge.

I was told that Russia may have invented long rage charged particle beam weapons.  I guess lasers are easier to make as photons don't have charge.  However,  they don't have mass, I am sure they can not have the punch as charged particles with mass.  Mass is solid energy according to what I see in Einstein's equation.  It takes a lot of energy to make mass I would think.  So much for preaching; " don't be materialistic.".   :-)

How to protect against high power focused kinetic energy of charged particles, I don't know. Maybe another beam focused directly at it.   Yea, that is nice.   :-)

====================================================================================

 

Just a quick comment on swansont's pinch effect.

This is what keeps a beam together in fluid metals (mercury) or plasma (several attempts at nuclear fusion have been made using this)

It is called the self-magnetic pinch effect and was first reported by Northruff in 1907.
But it is within the body of the beam, not external it.

That's probably me finished for tonight, but I will be back.

 

[studiot]

4 hours ago, Ali Lama said:

I would think there has to be means of propelling the electrons, be it  by means of magnetism, anodes or whatever.  Such force has to be strong enough to give the electrons enough velocity so that there is sufficient magnetic field (aligned)  around them to keep them together as their electric charge would keep them repelled.  Furthermore I would think that with enough force applied the electrons spin may also end up in the same direction.   I don't know,  but I doubt if a beam of electrons can be formed with them having every which way spin,  maybe as current in wires their spin don't play any role.  

In the mean time at present my opinion looks like this.  A beam of electrons have magnetic field in the same as in a wire.   If one can project two electron beams parallel and the beams are close enough that both are within the magnetic field of the other, they will attract/merge.  Anti-parallel the beams will repel/diverge.

I was told that Russia may have invented long rage charged particle beam weapons.  I guess lasers are easier to make as photons don't have charge.  However,  they don't have mass, I am sure they can not have the punch as charged particles with mass.  Mass is solid energy according to what I see in Einstein's equation.  It takes a lot of energy to make mass I would think.  So much for preaching; " don't be materialistic.". 

How to protect against high power focused kinetic energy of charged particles, I don't know. Maybe another beam focused directly at it.   Yea, that is nice.   

I think you are getting somewhere. +1

But you did ask that there were no other influences, and have already made things complicated by having two beams not one.
Even that 40 minute youtube vid you posted has only one beam.
What did you make of it?

Here is a suggested model of what you asked for

Two cathode emitters produce a stream of electrons at each end of a very very long evacuated tube.
The electrons are accelerated by mesh anodes at high voltage, one close to each cathode.
They pass through the mesh and are collimated into a tight beam where they pass into the long drift space in the middel.
Here their kinetic energy carries them across the long gap, to be collected to discharge at the other end.
The two beams are arranged slightly offset but parallel.

So your question comes down to discussing the electron ballistics of this device.

One comment, there will be considerable 'interference' from space charge build up in such an arrangement.
Have you heard of space charge?

[Ali Lama]

52 minutes ago, studiot said:

I think you are getting somewhere. +1

But you did ask that there were no other influences, and have already made things complicated by having two beams not one.
Even that 40 minute youtube vid you posted has only one beam.
What did you make of it?

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I posted that long video only because you had brought up Oersted's name. I thought you might pick up on that.  At the present moment I am inconclusive as to what I thought of it.  

I did however posted the video prior (maybe a two-three minute video) , "Magnetic Deflection of Electron Beam" or some such thing, and I think I mentioned that I send the fellow a message if he would be able to shoot couple of beams.  I haven't heard from him. 

============================================================================================================

Here is a suggested model of what you asked for

Two cathode emitters produce a stream of electrons at each end of a very very long evacuated tube.
The electrons are accelerated by mesh anodes at high voltage, one close to each cathode.
They pass through the mesh and are collimated into a tight beam where they pass into the long drift space in the middel.
Here their kinetic energy carries them across the long gap, to be collected to discharge at the other end.
The two beams are arranged slightly offset but parallel.

So your question comes down to discussing the electron ballistics of this device.

One comment, there will be considerable 'interference' from space charge build up in such an arrangement.
Have you heard of space charge?

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I have not heard of space charge but it sounds to me that the beam will have charge in the space around it probably for two reasons.  First their own collective negative charge of course is there even in vacuum I would think, although most likely contracted in the direction of motion.    And secondly from whatever source the electrons are ejected there will be massive positive charge left behind.  Those positive charges could reach into the vacuum of space I would think being all high strung and restless.  Hell those charges probably would like to just take off from  whatever they are contained in if they could, depending how much of them are in there going crazy.  It is a like a capacitor that only one charge is being kept or some such scenario.  I don't know.  

  I guess it is what it is.  It appears that I inquired about something  that in theory sounded easy  to achieve and there it is.

I figured in theory two parallel beams of same charge particles have reason to join and anti-parallel have reason not to join so long as they are not scattered in a mist of cloud.   It would be no different than one beam having made up of 10 zillion electrons, it would just be 20 zillion of them getting pulled or repelled by their combined magnetic field.  I figured even if it can be achieved to shoot two beams of charged particles in the air, if they are close, they should merge and if anti-parallel they would repel each other and change their path trajectory.  A good way to deflect the other child's deadly toy. 

Something like lasers I would think might stay parallel as they don't have any fields, charge, or mass.  No attraction or repulsion.  They can go every which way they want.

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Ali Lama