Impeachment Hearings

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

What's up with Trump wanting to remove the ambassador, and what does it have to do with the impeachment?

She was seen by him and Giuliani as an obstacle to their scheme of extorting Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden before military aid was released. She’s been a career diplomat for 30 years for administrations in both parties, and wasn’t one to go along with questionable behavior. So, they had her removed so they could pressure Ukraine in the way they did. trump says he didn’t pressure anyone to have her removed  

Now, one of these indicted guys named Lez Parnev is saying all of this happened with Trumps explicit direction. Trump kept saying he’s never even met Parnev so Parnev began releasing some of the hundreds of selfies he’d taken with Trump. 

Trumk said, “nah, well I take pictures with people all of the time. Doesn’t mean I know them,” so Parnev released a video of them having a 90 minute conversation together. As part of that conversation, we see Trump telling Parnev to take her out and get her out of there a year ago, and largely because she wasn’t going to be a sycophant to him nor would she help facilitate the quote unquote Ukrainian drug deal. 

He said he had nothing to do with the ambassador. He did. He said he’d never met Parnev, but selfies (and now this video) prove otherwise. 

Meanwhile, Trump continues to ask (in essence): “Who ya gonna believe, me or your own lying eyes?”

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

She was seen by him and Giuliani as an obstacle to their scheme of extorting Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden before military aid was released. She’s been a career diplomat for 30 years for administrations in both parties, and wasn’t one to go along with questionable behavior. So, they had her removed so they could pressure Ukraine in the way they did. trump says he didn’t pressure anyone to have her removed  

Now, one of these indicted guys named Lez Parnev is saying all of this happened with Trumps explicit direction. Trump kept saying he’s never even met Parnev so Parnev began releasing some of the hundreds of selfies he’d taken with Trump. 

Trumk said, “nah, well I take pictures with people all of the time. Doesn’t mean I know them,” so Parnev released a video of them having a 90 minute conversation together. As part of that conversation, we see Trump telling Parnev to take her out and get her out of there a year ago, and largely because she wasn’t going to be a sycophant to him nor would she help facilitate the quote unquote Ukrainian drug deal. 

He said he had nothing to do with the ambassador. He did. He said he’d never met Parnev, but selfies (and now this video) prove otherwise. 

Meanwhile, Trump continues to ask (in essence): “Who ya gonna believe, me or your own lying eyes?”

Thanks for the summary. +1

[iNow]

You bet. There’s another element of this story where allies of Trump and Giuliani we’re tracking her phone and her movements, and Trump mentioning some very bad things were going to happen to her. He also tweeted intimidating “attacks” against her while she was testifying in the House. 
 

https://apnews.com/fabcdf12d10f41eaaeddcccf339d08df
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-opens-probe-into-possible-surveillance-of-us-ambassador-yovanovitch/2020/01/16/a5ae3e82-3862-11ea-a1ff-c48c1d59a4a1_story.html

[Phi for All]

5 hours ago, Airbrush said:

Now there is a recording of Trump saying "GET RID OF HER!!  TAKE HER OUT...DO IT!!" about the former Ambassador Yovanovitch.  Because of Trump's mannerisms this sounds very much like encouraging SOMEONE, anyone, to KILL Yovanovitch.  That is exactly the way mob bosses talk.  "Take them out" means "kill them." 

43 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I wouldn't look at that conversation and think that Trump is saying to kill her. I think that's a jump(not a leap by any means, but still a decent jump) in logic to conclude that he meant to kill her.

Airbrush, I agree with Raider5678 completely on this. Sometimes you engage in the kind of extraordinary speculation we require extraordinary evidence for on a science forum, and too often it involves motives you can't possibly know. There are SO MANY valid criticisms of this administration, and I think you're only feeding trolls by straying from the facts. Exaggeration and misleading vividness are not the tools of reasonable people. 

[Raider5678]

35 minutes ago, iNow said:

You bet. There’s another element of this story where allies of Trump and Giuliani we’re tracking her phone and her movements

Is that not routine CIA behavior for ambassadors?

[iNow]

No. And it wasn’t the CIA doing it. It was Ukrainian mobsters... erm, I mean... oligarchs. 

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

No. And it wasn’t the CIA doing it. It was Ukrainian mobsters... erm, I mean... oligarchs. 

Ah, nvm then.

[moth]

Are the president's lawyers claiming the witnesses are being mis-quoted and the documents don't support a request for a bribe while demanding we don't need to see any documents or hear any witnesses?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Airbrush, I agree with Raider5678 completely on this. Sometimes you engage in the kind of extraordinary speculation we require extraordinary evidence for on a science forum, and too often it involves motives you can't possibly know. There are SO MANY valid criticisms of this administration, and I think you're only feeding trolls by straying from the facts. Exaggeration and misleading vividness are not the tools of reasonable people. 

Counterpoint: Why would he be telling people to fire her, when they had no power to fire her?

—-

A preview of Bolton’s book just got reported. Scoop from the NYT

“President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/us/politics/trump-bolton-book-ukraine.html

He had to get security approval, so people knew this was coming.

[Airbrush]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Airbrush, I agree with Raider5678 completely on this. Sometimes you engage in the kind of extraordinary speculation we require extraordinary evidence for on a science forum, and too often it involves motives you can't possibly know. There are SO MANY valid criticisms of this administration, and I think you're only feeding trolls by straying from the facts. Exaggeration and misleading vividness are not the tools of reasonable people. 

Gotcha.  Sorry about that.

Why would Trump tell other people to "take her out" when it is his job?  Who else can fire an ambassador except the president?  It sounds like he wants someone else to do the dirty work.  But nobody else can fire her except for him.  So how does someone else "take her out"?   Obviously Trump is pleading for someone else to "take her out."  How do they take her out?

Raider, you want to know how I know how mob bosses talk?  Just watch the movies "Good Fellas"  "Casino" and the "Godfather" series.  Vague, brief, short words, short sentences, active verbs.  Which is considered effective writing.  Trump is an excellent communicator.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Airbrush

[zapatos]

20 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

It sounds like he wants someone else to do the dirty work.  But nobody else can fire her except for him.  So how does someone else "take her out"?   Obviously Trump is pleading for someone else to "take her out."  How do they take her out?

Perhaps they could find someone to track her whereabouts to see if she is doing anything disreputable. That would allow them to discredit her, and perhaps force her resignation.

[Airbrush]

8 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Perhaps they could find someone to track her whereabouts to see if she is doing anything disreputable. That would allow them to discredit her, and perhaps force her resignation.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.  Maybe that is what Parnas & Company were doing, tracking her, although Parnas denies it.

So by saying "get rid of her" and "take her out" and "do it" Trump could be merely suggesting they follow her around, trying to catch her doing something wrong.  However, it sounds MORE like Trump wants THEM to do something so he won't have to get his hands dirty by firing her.  He put off the firing for a year, just in case someone wanted to exercise a little initiative.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Airbrush

[MigL]

I have known a couple of 'mobsters' or lower level 'mob bosses'.
You would be surprised how eloquent they are these days, Airbrush.

[Phi for All]

13 hours ago, MigL said:

I have known a couple of 'mobsters' or lower level 'mob bosses'.
You would be surprised how eloquent they are these days, Airbrush.

Trump: "Where were you guys?"

Parnas: "We was wit' you, at Rigoletto's!"

[J.C.MacSwell]

13 hours ago, MigL said:

I have known a couple of 'mobsters' or lower level 'mob bosses'.
You would be surprised how eloquent they are these days, Airbrush.

Ruling out Trump? 

[swansont]

Of course we have Trump's own catch phrase from "The Apprentice" when he wanted to fire someone. "Take him/her out!" 

He's famous for that.

[dimreepr]

19 minutes ago, swansont said:

Of course we have Trump's own catch phrase from "The Apprentice" when he wanted to fire someone. "Take him/her out!" 

He's famous for that.

He doesn't understand the differance.

That's my hope... 

[MigL]

That's an indication of the state of American politics.

D Trump would never survive as a mobster.
He's got the right instincts ( me, me, me ), but has loose ( twitter ) lips, and a tendency to hang others 'out to dry' for his mistakes ( cant even begin to mention all the names ).

Kind of sad that some think that makes him presidential material.

[dimreepr]

It's kind of sad that we don't know why that makes him presidential material.

[Airbrush]

15 hours ago, MigL said:

I have known a couple of 'mobsters' or lower level 'mob bosses'.
You would be surprised how eloquent they are these days, Airbrush.

It is about what's in Trump's 8-year-old mind.  It appears that he imagines himself a mob boss, like in the movies.  It is not based on reality that you refer to.  Trump has seen enough gangster movies.  Why would he talk like them?  He thinks it looks cool and tough.  Also he is friendly with Russian Oligarch/Mobsters.  It was the way he complained about people "flipping to the cops."  He is sympathetic to the corrupt Ukraine prosecutor and against REALLY fighting corruption. 

The Trump "Ukraine Team" were saying to Zelenskiy:  "So you got corruption under control yet?  Anyhow we wanna do a little business with you, unless you want to see Russian tanks everywhere in your country."  Or better yet:  "Nice country you have here, it would be a shame to lose it to Russia."

Edited January 27, 2020 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

It is about what's in Trump's 8-year-old mind.  It appears that he imagines himself a mob boss, like in the movies.  It is not based on reality that you refer to.  Trump has seen enough gangster movies.  Why would he talk like them?  He thinks it looks cool and tough.  Also he is friendly with Russian Oligarch/Mobsters.  It was the way he complained about people "flipping" for the cops.  He is sympathetic to the corrupt Ukraine prosecutor and against REALLY fighting corruption.  The Trump "Ukraine Team" were saying to Zelenskiy (that was hard to spell!) "So is corruption under control yet?  Anyhow we would like to do a little corruption with you, unless you want to see Russian tanks all over your country.

Yet, Trump is the president.

[Phi for All]

11 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Also he is friendly with Russian Oligarch/Mobsters.

He didn't know their nickname for him, prostofilya, means "patsy" or "dupe". Trump thought it meant he liked hookers.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Leaking of parts of Bolton's book may have thrown a loop into the calling of witnesses issue.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-impeachment-trial-live-updates-bolton-bombshell-rocks/story?id=68560105&cid=clicksource_4380645_4_three_posts_card_hed

[iNow]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Of course we have Trump's own catch phrase from "The Apprentice" when he wanted to fire someone. "Take him/her out!" 

He's famous for that.

Lol. This seems to have gone over their heads

1 hour ago, MigL said:

D Trump would never survive as a mobster.

Would never survive?!? He won the GD presidency! 

15 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Leaking of parts of Bolton's book may have thrown a loop into the calling of witnesses issue.

I suspect it will just be yet another reminder of how spineless and cowardly the GOP has become.

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

I suspect it will just be yet another reminder of how spineless and cowardly the GOP has become.

So you think they will vote to have no witnesses?