Woman loses tribunal over transgender tweets (and defended by JK Rowling)

[zapatos]

28 minutes ago, koti said:

I guess reality in this context is what law makers make. 

Lawmakers of course do not define reality. In fact they pass laws that are in opposition to reason on a regular basis. I'm surprised a person of science would make that statement.

[Sensei]

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Lawmakers of course do not define reality. In fact they pass laws that are in opposition to reason on a regular basis. I'm surprised a person of science would make that statement.

..he is drinking whisky as always on Friday night and weekend..

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sensei

[koti]

34 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Lawmakers of course do not define reality. In fact they pass laws that are in opposition to reason on a regular basis. I'm surprised a person of science would make that statement.

It was sarcasm and youre right. 

32 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..he is drinking whisky as always on Friday night and weekend..

 

Oh no, last weekend I spent whiskey free mostly teaching my 4 year old how to swim but tonigh youre right, I am having Caol Ila 12. At home. 

Edit: Plus this, and the other time a few weeks ago when you said youre going to list my PESEL stating you know everything about me seriously makes me worried about your future Sensei. Youre not the only one around with tools available, there are differences though in what use you make of them, I stronlgy suggest you back off.

Edited December 20, 2019 by koti

[Sensei]

I did not hack you. If that is what you are imputing here. I do not have to hack anybody. Not the way you are thinking.

[koti]

5 minutes ago, Sensei said:

I did not hack you. If that is what you are imputing here. I do not have to hack anybody. Not the way you are thinking.

I know exactly what you mean. Stop digging on me before you cross the line.

Edited December 20, 2019 by koti

[hypervalent_iodine]

1 hour ago, koti said:

I know exactly what you mean. Stop digging on me before you cross the line.

!

Moderator Note

Knock it off. This isn’t the place for making weird accusations to other members. Stick to the topic and try to stay a little more objective. 
 

While we’re at it, and though I appreciate that these subjects can be a little charged, I would further recommend you use more caution with your language. Recall that we have rules that prohibit members using this site as a platform for making slurs against a group or groups of people. Comparing gender to the very disparate issue of obesity in addition to some of your other “jokes” is very close to crossing the line, if it hasn’t already. Others have made some thoughtful contributions around the science of the topic, and I would suggest sticking to that line of discussion or simply leaving it alone.

 

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, iNow said:

Dimreepr rejects he binary idea of coherence/incoherence in posts

 

 

 

I reject the idea of binary in relation to latency. coherence/incoherence is just one of my problems.

[Carrock]

Even supposedly objective tests like DNA have problems with "But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?"

or remove children if DNA 'proves' a woman is not the mother of her supposed children?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild
 

Quote

 

Fairchild stood accused of fraud by either claiming benefits for other people's children, or taking part in a surrogacy scam, and records of her prior births were put similarly in doubt. Prosecutors called for her two children to be taken away from her, believing them not to be hers. As time came for her to give birth to her third child, the judge ordered that an observer be present at the birth, ensure that blood samples were immediately taken from both the child and Fairchild, and be available to testify. Two weeks later, DNA tests seemed to indicate that she was also not the mother of that child....

[eventually]

They also found that, although the DNA in Fairchild's skin and hair did not match her children's, the DNA from a cervical smear test did match. Fairchild was carrying two different sets of DNA, the defining characteristic of chimerism.

 

A very intrusive example of "guilty until proved innocent."

Fiascos like this suggest that human chimerism is much more common than used to be believed. No doubt some murderers have escaped justice because DNA proved them innocent.

 

I couldn't find any male/female chimera being banned from all bathrooms but give it time.....

 

 

 

[Sensei]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:06 PM, iNow said:

Dimreepr rejects the binary idea of coherence/incoherence in posts

He is in superposition.. There is needed observer to set him up to certain state..

 

[iNow]

Lol. It’s be nice if the wave function would just collapse a bit more often 

[Raider5678]

On 12/20/2019 at 11:24 AM, zapatos said:

There is evidence that "gender" is more complicated than the binary "either male or female".

Not to go off topic, but if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me the evidence I'd appreciate that.

[iNow]

Some good references here: http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

[Raider5678]

On 12/20/2019 at 4:02 PM, Sensei said:

 In my country gender is encoded inside of personal identification number given at birth date. Is it not overt violation of rights of transgender person? What we can see on website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number

we have many countries which encode sex male, sex female, in their national identification numbers. Including ones which are quite open to gender minorities such as South Korea, Italy, Switzerland or Scotland. Norway just resigned in 2017 (so the all people born prior 2017 are still affected).

Consequence of this, is that when somebody has transgender surgical operation, has to change national personal identification number.

It can be deadly to think someone is a different biological gender. Being transgender is one thing, but your body is still biologically a male/female.

How you treat and/or diagnose different medical emergencies, like stroke, cardiac arrest, asthma, heart failure, etc, is often different between males and females in subtle ways. But, subtle differences can sometimes mean life or death in the medical field.

This is less about someone trying to violate someone's rights, as trying to prevent medical mishaps that kill people. 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Raider5678

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Raider5678 said:

your body is still biologically a male/female

There are more than two states.

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

There are more than two states.

Biologically, there are typically only 2 genders, correct?

[Sensei]

14 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Biologically, there are typically only 2 genders, correct?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

 

"Many fish change sex over the course of their lifespan, a phenomenon called sequential hermaphroditism. In clownfish, smaller fish are male, and the dominant and largest fish in a group becomes female."

"For many species, sex is not determined by inherited traits, but instead by environmental factors experienced during development or later in life. Many reptiles have temperature-dependent sex determination: the temperature embryos experience during their development determines the sex of the organism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Sensei

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Biologically, there are typically only 2 genders, correct?

Typically is not exclusively, and the point of all this are those that have been marginalized. 

[Raider5678]

Just now, swansont said:

Typically is not exclusively

An example of a third biological gender that would play a role in medical treatments and diagnosis then?

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Typically is not exclusively, and the point of all this are those that have been marginalized. 

Perhaps, but removing biological indicators from an ID, or worse yet, allowing people to modify that, could lead to marginalized people and non marginalized people alike dying.

That's bad, right? We can agree on that?

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Typically is not exclusively, and the point of all this are those that have been marginalized. 

Well, they are margin of population. But being minority does mean that (mostly primitive uneducated) people should attack them and insult them.. They did not choose how their embryo developed..

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

An example of a third biological gender that would play a role in medical treatments and diagnosis then?

I trust that doctors in hospital will notice that newly born baby and in later age patient has both male and female organs at the same time. But I don't think so doctors are prepared to such unusal situations and how they should adjust treatment of such patient.. starting from legal point of view: what to enter as gender in papers if there is no option for alternative than male/female (especially in on-line and/or computer forms)..

Edited December 21, 2019 by Sensei

[swansont]

40 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

An example of a third biological gender that would play a role in medical treatments and diagnosis then?

Perhaps, but removing biological indicators from an ID, or worse yet, allowing people to modify that, could lead to marginalized people and non marginalized people alike dying.

That's bad, right? We can agree on that?

I am unaware of how much medical treatment is based on your ID to the exclusion of other communication.

[Estavros]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:24 AM, swansont said:

I think a lot of older folks have a hard time with the concept.

One underlying issue is that we're taught some basic stuff in school, but the actual science is more complicated and subtle. We see it here all the time, in less socially-charged situations, when people insist on something based solely on e.g. classical/Newtonian physics, and ignore the fact that relativity and QM exist. They don't appreciate the fact that they are ignorant, and have no concept of the depth of their ignorance.

Even though I have some difficulty in appreciating some of the subtlety surrounding sex and gender, I have heard smart people explain it, so at least I recognize that "X chromosome, Y chromosome" is not the end-all, be-all of the discussion, and that this is real: it's a spectrum, rather than being binary. But that's partially because I know this "you only learn the tip of the iceberg in high school" to be true about physics, so it's not hard to recognize it must also be true in biology.

However, I have no idea if that is the source of Ms. Rowling's position, since other effects can come into play, such as religious teachings crowding out and/or ossifying capability for processing new and better information.

X and Y chromosome is not the only indicator of gender, The Brain is what determines the ever-flowing ability to follow our physical desires on this plane... here and now

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, Estavros said:

X and Y chromosome is not the only indicator of gender, The Brain is what determines the ever-flowing ability to follow our physical desires on this plane... here and now

It sounds like you’re adding to swansonts post, not disagreeing with it, correct?

[John Cuthber]

Did anyone actually read the judgement- or even the newspaper highlights of it?
 

""It is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment," he continued."

Now that's not a decent way to behave.
And Rowling was factually wrong to describe is as she did.

Forstater was effectively sacked for bullying and harassment.

[StringJunky]

42 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Did anyone actually read the judgement- or even the newspaper highlights of it?
 

""It is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment," he continued."

Now that's not a decent way to behave.
And Rowling was factually wrong to describe is as she did.

Forstater was effectively sacked for bullying and harassment.

Exactly, but the wider comments made here are still intelligent, pertinent and appreciated by myself.

Edited December 22, 2019 by StringJunky

[Prometheus]

14 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

How you treat and/or diagnose different medical emergencies, like stroke, cardiac arrest, asthma, heart failure, etc, is often different between males and females in subtle ways. But, subtle differences can sometimes mean life or death in the medical field.

How?

I never came across that in 6 years of A&E nursing. There's a difference in the presentation of abdominal and associated pains, but for the ones you have listed i can't remember any instances where knowing the sex made any difference to the patient's outcome.