Electricity (split from Science Project (static charge))

[Ghideon]

9 hours ago, westom said:

So rather than argue, please explain why electricity is always same at both ends of a wire.  List parameters that support your belief.

Having done that on three pages has not helped in this discussion so I'll try another approach by answering: If using a non-mainstream* definition of "electricity", could electricity be different at both ends of a wire? Probably, if electricity is defined as something like "The combination of all measurable effects from static or moving electric charges". I'll try an analogy:

Let's say we have a car and a road**. The car starts at one end of the road and drives to the other end. Is the car the same at both end of the road? Answer may be "yes" or "no" depending on context. From the drivers or owners point of view they drove the same car, they did not swap car along the road. If a cop followed a suspect driving the car that would probably hold in court, the same car was seen traveling along all of the road.
But how about a detailed physical level? Was the car 100% identical? That seems to depend on how do we define "the same". The car consumed fuel. Some small amount of wear and tear would happen on engine, tyres, seats and other parts. Some dust would be collected and so on. So on very detailed level there would be many measurable effects on the car from it's journey. So depending on how the car was modelled one could argue that the car has changed. After the journey the car was not 100% identical.
 

If we would choose to change the definition of a "car" into something like "A specific set of particles that makes up a a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal engine and able to carry a small number of people" then the car may not be the same at both ends of the road. Some particles may be added and some may be lost.

But: And this is important: the definition of "car" will not change.  Newtons laws (or any other laws used to model some aspect of the car) will not change. Definition of any scientific concepts will not change.
Changes in measurements of involved effects does not change the definitions of the scientific concepts. 

So I still argue that the definition of electricity does not allow electricity change from one end of wire to the other. The definition just does not allow that. The above analogy should highlight how. And also show that alternate definitions, not the common ones from the mainstream, could give a different result. But that would not be meaningful or provide an improvement.

 

edit: X-posted with @Strange, who provided a more elegant and compact formulation:

7 minutes ago, Strange said:

"electricity" is not a thing that can be measured, any more than "physics" or "history" can be measured. 

 

*) Of course I'm not going to suggest that the scientific definition of electricity should be changed, there is no point in changing that. This is just an attempt at helping OP.
**) Car is approximately "electricity". The road is the wire.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Ghideon
Format, xpost

[Strange]

48 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

edit: X-posted with @Strange, who provided a more elegant and compact formulation:

 

I was also thinking of a car analogy while out with the dog!

 

[swansont]

57 minutes ago, Strange said:

It is about time you presented some support for your arguments, other than just bluster and insults.

Seconded.

People have provided citations and other material to back up their position. All you (westom) have done is make assertions.

[studiot]

We seem to have reached an impasse.

A good way forward in such circumstances is to set down what can be agreed.

I consider that we agree that there are no ideal circuit elements in the real world.

On 1/4/2020 at 7:13 AM, westom said:

In the real world, no ideal conductor exists. 

 

Personally I am quite happy to let 'electricity' stand as short form for 'electrically derived phenomenon' or somesuch and let the context show the phenomenon concerned.

On 12/27/2019 at 5:18 AM, westom said:

The term "electricity" defines electricity.  Voltage is only one parameter of electricity.

I would appear that you are of similar mind.

 

Are you agreed  on these and would you like to add any others ?

[westom]

On 1/6/2020 at 5:13 AM, Strange said:

I was also thinking of a car analogy while out with the dog!

 

Car analogy does not apply.  When electricity is in any part of that wire, it is on all parts of that wire.  Car is either here or there - and never at both places.

Of course, once that car gets 'there', it is no longer same as 'here'.  It contains less gas.  Not that it is relevant to electricity.

Sometimes people try to explain electricity with water.  It works better.  And still some concepts in hydrology are different from electricity.

Another example.  Power a long wire antenna from a 200 watt transmitter.  Touch one part of that wire to be shocked by maybe 100 volts. Touch another part to feel zero volts.  How can that be if electricity is always same at all parts of a wire?

Electricity is again different at various locations on that wire.

Edited January 8, 2020 by westom

[MigL]

And still you can't differentiate between voltage, and the general term for electrical phenomena, 'electricity' ...

Makes having a discussion with you very difficult.

[Strange]

6 hours ago, westom said:

Of course, once that car gets 'there', it is no longer same as 'here'.  It contains less gas.  Not that it is relevant to electricity.

We can measure the amount of gas (just as we can measure voltage).

But we cannot measure "electricity", can we? You obviously agree because you have not said what device you would use to measure "electricity" or what units it is measured in. What is the SI unit for electricity?

You also still refuse to provide any sources or references that support your misuse of words. 

6 hours ago, westom said:

Another example.  Power a long wire antenna from a 200 watt transmitter.  Touch one part of that wire to be shocked by maybe 100 volts. Touch another part to feel zero volts.  How can that be if electricity is always same at all parts of a wire?

Because the voltage is different. Obviously.

So, again, in what way is "electricity" quantitatively different at different parts of the wire? Does Ohm's law change? Is current no longer due to the movement of charge carriers? Show me how you would measure the difference in "electricity".

7 hours ago, westom said:

Electricity is again different at various locations on that wire.

No. Electricity is the same everywhere. Even in the absence of any charges, currents or voltages. 

[Sensei]

7 hours ago, westom said:

Car analogy does not apply.  When electricity is in any part of that wire, it is on all parts of that wire.  Car is either here or there - and never at both places.

Of course, once that car gets 'there', it is no longer same as 'here'.  It contains less gas.  Not that it is relevant to electricity.

Kinetic energy of electrons change as they fly through wire and are colliding with atoms giving them part of their energy, thus heating medium they pass through. I already gave example of it in Joule heating article to read by you..

Measurement how much power/energy was dissipated on electric or electronic element is done by measurement of voltage drop, and multiplication by current passing through it. Car burning fuel during travel is pretty good analogy of electron losing kinetic energy during travel through circuit.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sensei

[westom]

9 hours ago, Strange said:

But we cannot measure "electricity", can we?

Please do not be daft.  Of course we measure the electricity.  Some of the many parameters listed previously and repeatedly.

Even your joule heating example says why electricity is not same at both ends of the wire.  

The fact that you ignore all three examples simply highlights that you do not understand those simple electrical concepts.

But again, is the voltage same at both ends of a wire?  Obviously not.  Repeatedly stated.  And constantly ignored by you.  That is only one parameter.  Plenty of other parameters also state quite clearly that electricity is different.  Why do you constantly ignore the telegrapher's equation ... that also says electricity is different at both ends?

What do you do with every example that demonstrates it?  Ignore it.  Please go back and learn this simple stuff before posting.  It is not hard.  Even voltage will be different at both ends.  It is that simple.  Stated repeatedly.  And ignored.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sensei said:

Car burning fuel during travel is pretty good analogy of electron losing kinetic energy during travel through circuit.

So even the car is different between 'here' and 'there'.   You just said so. That analogy simply demonstrates what I have been saying all along.

 

[studiot]

12 minutes ago, westom said:

Why do you constantly ignore the telegrapher's equation ... that also says electricity is different at both ends?

 

Ahem?

[Ghideon]

17 hours ago, westom said:

Car analogy does not apply. 

Ok. Sorry that the analogy dit not work for you. I'll try something else. 

 

17 hours ago, westom said:

When electricity is in any part of that wire, it is on all parts of that wire.  Car is either here or there - and never at both places.

Can you elaborate? Are you arguing that when sending a pulse along wire the pulse is on all parts of that wire immediately? No signal delay before it reaches the other end?

 

1 hour ago, westom said:

Why do you constantly ignore the telegrapher's equation

Did not:

On 12/30/2019 at 12:26 AM, Ghideon said:

The telegrapher's equations is a good example, covering several electrical phenomena that are related to my example of CAT7 network cables.
But I can't find support for your claim that electricity is different at each end. (Numerous other aspects of signal transfer are of course different)  

 

1 hour ago, westom said:

Please do not be daft.
...
Please go back and learn this simple stuff
...

While complaining on what others ignore you seem to have missed: If using a non-mainstream definition of "electricity", could electricity be different at both ends of a wire? Probably, if electricity is defined as something like "The combination of all measurable effects from static or moving electric charges". Does that match your personal definition of electricity? 

 

Bold by me:

On 1/6/2020 at 6:04 PM, studiot said:

Personally I am quite happy to let 'electricity' stand as short form for 'electrically derived phenomenon' or somesuch and let the context show the phenomenon concerned.

Good point, I agree! There are lot's of situations* where that apply over here. "Electricity" in everyday talk is something like "The supply of electric current to a house or other building for heating, lighting, or powering appliances". "Electricity charge"** may not apply in science conversation but is what the scientist will see written in their bill.
"The electricity company will charge you as stated in the electricity contract" is not ambiguous in that context. 

 

*) Everyday/informal conversation in Swedish. "El" is often used for "electricity", similar to how "e" in email or e-commerce.
**) direct translation of examples, risk for missing the point.

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Ghideon
missed to add "if electricity is defined..."

[Strange]

2 hours ago, westom said:

Please do not be daft.  Of course we measure the electricity.  Some of the many parameters listed previously and repeatedly.

Yes, as I said, we can measure voltage or current or power or field strength or many others things. There are instruments to measure these and units defined to quantify them. 

There are no instruments that will measure “electricity” and no units that it can be measured in. 

I think you need to take some classes in Basic English. 

2 hours ago, westom said:

But again, is the voltage same at both ends of a wire? 

But that is not what you said. 

You said the “electricity” is different at each end, I pointed out that this is pretty meaningless and that it is the voltage that is different. 

Please learn to understand and speak English properly. 

2 hours ago, westom said:

Why do you constantly ignore the telegrapher's equation ... that also says electricity is different at both ends?

I am not ignoring it. It says that voltage and current vary. Not that “electricity” changes.

2 hours ago, westom said:

Even voltage will be different at both ends.  It is that simple.  Stated repeatedly. 

This has been stated repeatedly. But not by you. You have repeatedly said that “electricity” is different at each end. Which is gibberish. When people attempt to correct your use of English, you ignore them. 

If you are so sure you are correct, why are you unable to provide an example of how “electricity” is measured? Or even one reference that supports your claims? Maybe because you are talking nonsense?

[Sensei]

@Strange

This madness should be stopped once and for all by closing the thread. Done!

 

[Strange]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

@Strange

This madness should be stopped once and for all by closing the thread. Done!

This has been discussed. I'm not sure why it hasn't been done yet! (I cannot do it, as I am involved in the thread.)

[studiot]

4 hours ago, studiot said:

4 hours ago, westom said:

Why do you constantly ignore the telegrapher's equation ... that also says electricity is different at both ends?

 

Ahem?

 

 

Since everbody seems to want to discuss the telegrapher's equation, should we at the very least apply it correctly ?

 

How many wires are required to connect  one mesh node to another  ?  (answer 1)

How many wires are required to apply the telegrapher's equation ?  (answer twice as many ie 2)

So I repeat my earlier question what does the telegrapher's equation have to do with mesh conditions?

 

I am still waiting for a response to my last question

On 1/6/2020 at 5:04 PM, studiot said:

Are you agreed  on these and would you like to add any others ?

 

[MigL]

Is English not your first language, Westom ?

[Phi for All]

18 hours ago, westom said:

Please do not be daft.  Of course we measure the electricity.  Some of the many parameters listed previously and repeatedly.

Even your joule heating example says why electricity is not same at both ends of the wire.  

The fact that you ignore all three examples simply highlights that you do not understand those simple electrical concepts.

But again, is the voltage same at both ends of a wire?  Obviously not.  Repeatedly stated.  And constantly ignored by you.  That is only one parameter.  Plenty of other parameters also state quite clearly that electricity is different.  Why do you constantly ignore the telegrapher's equation ... that also says electricity is different at both ends?

What do you do with every example that demonstrates it?  Ignore it.  Please go back and learn this simple stuff before posting.  It is not hard.  Even voltage will be different at both ends.  It is that simple.  Stated repeatedly.  And ignored.

 

 

So even the car is different between 'here' and 'there'.   You just said so. That analogy simply demonstrates what I have been saying all along.

 

!

Moderator Note

westom, it's abundantly clear that you're being purposely obtuse about the definitions you're insisting upon. Ignoring people when they ask for clarity shows you have poor discussion skills. You really need a forum like this, but please don't stay here if you're going to continue block your own learning experience. It's not fair to you, and it's certainly not fair to those who took their time to help you remove some ignorance. 

 

!

Moderator Note

This thread is closed.