Another Twist in the Issue of Sexual Predators

[beautyundone]

Everyone did catch the fact that I thought that rape should be considered to be a form of assault, right? What I want to remove is the way that sex makes it so very special. Holding the attacker responsible for damage to someone's personal parts is quite acceptable. I'm tired of the way that sex crimes have a super special oh my god status. I'm even more tired of the way people obsess about them. Someone committed a sex crime, let's design ways to be more violent to more of our fellow humans in order to solve this problem, even if we know that doesn't work. While we're at it, let's treat all other violent crime as if it is nothing special, business as usual, and let's not worry about it unless they do something sexual. That's the mindset that I see. I also see a lot of glorification of violence by people who say bad things about sex.

 

that's because sex crimes involve VIOLATING someone... as in taking things they may be saving for marriage and causing unnecessary trauma to the victim. sex is supposed to be something that two people enjoy, not something that leaves one person mentally and physically scarred for the rest of their lives. and not something that should be forced upon an unwilling person.

 

yes, sex crimes do have that "oh my god" status because they involve violating the victim in a way that no one should be violated. ever. however, this is not saying that physical and emotional abuse go unpunished either. it's just that people are generally more perturbed by sexual crimes, as they are MUCH more personal.

[Douglas]

. it's just that people are generally more perturbed by sexual crimes, as they are MUCH more personal.

I think that applies to woman, probably not to men, at least not me.

 

I think if I had had the good fortune to be statutorally raped by the two attractive teachers who are currently on trial here in the U.S., I'd have been one happy kid........and I sure wouldn't have pressed charges.

[Thomas Kirby]

yes, sex crimes do have that "oh my god" status because they involve violating the victim in a way that no one should be violated. ever. however, this is not saying that physical and emotional abuse go unpunished either. it's just that people are generally more perturbed by sexual crimes, as they are MUCH more personal.

 

Punching someone's teeth out is violating someone in a way that no one should be violated, ever, also. Even more importantly, forcing someone to hate their bodies and their sex is a violation that is just as personal as raping them. Most of my objection to this system is that the terms such as "rape" and "pedophilia" are abused to stir up hatred against individuals, self-hatred, bodily shame, guilt over natural feelings, and of course to generate billions of dollars in ill-gotten gains. If the laws are in place to enable abuse and exploitation of children and adults, we may well be better off without them.

[Douglas]

Most of my objection to this system is that the terms such as "rape" and "pedophilia" are abused to stir up hatred against individuals, .

It's probably best to keep pedophilia out of the discussion, since it's a monstrous act of violence against defenseless children, and must be dealt with severely

Statutory rape of young woman is a different story, especially the "I thought she was 18" type. These are usually consensual, so the sentences IMO should be lighter. Statutory rape of young men should IMO be a misdemeanor.

Regular rape of a man raping a woman could be handled as aggrivated assault, and rape of a woman raping a man should not be procecuted.

 

Of course that's not PC

[Dak]

Regular rape of a man raping a woman could be handled as aggrivated assault, and rape of a woman raping a man should not be procecuted.

 

'agrevated assault' means assault with a weapon... and anyway, if your going to differentiate rape from normal assault you may as well stick with sexual assault.

 

why should women be allowed to forse men who dont want to have sex with them into performing sexual acts?

[MetaFrizzics]

sex is supposed to be something that two people enjoy, not something that leaves one person mentally and physically scarred for the rest of their lives.

Yet apparently, according to North American statistics, 60% of married women have never experienced orgasm (with their partners), and the stats are worse in other parts of the world. There's theory, then there's reality. Even sincere people seem hopelessly inept at the most basic things.

why should women be allowed to forse men who dont want to have sex with them into performing sexual acts?

Well, it would break the back of the sex-trade. (facetious).

Actually, it seems a no-brainer that assault is assault. If the act of skipping consent could be justified at all, it would be biologically in the name of perpetuation of the human race in spite of the education of women, which reveals to them the actual systemic inequity of being child-bearers. Soon in fact, we can expect birth rates to drop everywhere, beginning with the advanced countries as women en masse reject their traditional roles.

 

In this case, an argument could be made that women's consent is not necessary until and unless another way to create and carry children is found practical on a grand scale. Unfortunately, this is *not* the reason or the result of a majority of rape cases. The male is not trying to reproduce at all, but rather it seems to be a hate crime of sorts, or an act of domination for its own sake.

[Thomas Kirby]

It's probably best to keep pedophilia out of the discussion' date=' since it's a monstrous act of violence against defenseless children, and must be dealt with severely

Statutory rape of young woman is a different story, especially the "I thought she was 18" type. These are usually consensual, so the sentences IMO should be lighter. Statutory rape of young men should IMO be a misdemeanor.

Regular rape of a man raping a woman could be handled as aggrivated assault, and rape of a woman raping a man should not be procecuted.

 

Of course that's not PC[/quote']

 

That's my problem. People perceive a "monstrous" act and they stop dealing with it rationally. They lose the capacity to treat people fairly. When thinking up schemes for prevention, they go for the most neurotic ideas, the most destructive ideas. Pedophiles are used as an excuse by politicians to justify bans on manufacturing and distribution of adult pornography because some pedophiles use pornography to "tempt children." The rage, the panic, the hysteria, spread far and wide from the source. The perception of a "monstrous act" and the obsession with it has us regarding all sex, all touching, with fear, shame, and guilt. It makes us violent against perceived perpetrators. Our perception of what constitutes a perpetrator is very, very broad, so this violence, both overt and covert, can become very widespread.

 

It didn't start with an abhorrence of pedophilia, either. It started with fear and hatred of sex. It's only been a few decades that abuse of children in Western culture has even been perceived as wrong.

[Douglas]

'agrevated assault' means assault with a weapon....

Rape is an assault with a weapon....

[Bettina]

That's my problem. People perceive a "monstrous" act and they stop dealing with it rationally. They lose the capacity to treat people fairly. When thinking up schemes for prevention' date=' they go for the most neurotic ideas, the most destructive ideas. Pedophiles are used as an excuse by politicians to justify bans on manufacturing and distribution of adult pornography because some pedophiles use pornography to "tempt children." The rage, the panic, the hysteria, spread far and wide from the source. The perception of a "monstrous act" and the obsession with it has us regarding all sex, all touching, with fear, shame, and guilt. It makes us violent against perceived perpetrators. Our perception of what constitutes a perpetrator is very, very broad, so this violence, both overt and covert, can become very widespread.

 

It didn't start with an abhorrence of pedophilia, either. It started with fear and hatred of sex. It's only been a few decades that abuse of children in Western culture has even been perceived as wrong.[/quote']

 

I have been following this thread with interest and have seen some pretty intellegent questions and answers. I have not yet taken sides but I need to know something from you.

The statement quoted here

It's probably best to keep pedophilia out of the discussion, since it's a monstrous act of violence against defenseless children, and must be dealt with severely

and your reply above bothers me and maybe you can clarify.

 

A pedophile is a person who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children so my question to you is this. Do you believe the act of a person who rapes a child would be considered a monstrous act that should be dealt with severely?

 

Bettina

[beautyundone]

That's my problem. People perceive a "monstrous" act and they stop dealing with it rationally. They lose the capacity to treat people fairly. When thinking up schemes for prevention' date=' they go for the most neurotic ideas, the most destructive ideas. Pedophiles are used as an excuse by politicians to justify bans on manufacturing and distribution of adult pornography because some pedophiles use pornography to "tempt children." The rage, the panic, the hysteria, spread far and wide from the source. The perception of a "monstrous act" and the obsession with it has us regarding all sex, all touching, with fear, shame, and guilt. It makes us violent against perceived perpetrators. Our perception of what constitutes a perpetrator is very, very broad, so this violence, both overt and covert, can become very widespread.

 

It didn't start with an abhorrence of pedophilia, either. It started with fear and hatred of sex. It's only been a few decades that abuse of children in Western culture has even been perceived as wrong.[/quote']

 

i actually wouldn't mind pornography being banned. i don't see the point of it. but that's just me.

 

but my question is: do you think having sex with a child who did not give his/her consent is a crime? you seem to think otherwise.

[Douglas]

Pedophiles are used as an excuse by politicians to justify bans on manufacturing and distribution of adult pornography because some pedophiles use pornography to "tempt children." .

I agree that many politicians use the "save the children" routine as justification for enacting laws that are only vaguely related to children.

 

I doubt that pedophiles use adult porn to "tempt children", though some politicians may use that as an excuse to ban adult porn.........When I say adult porn, I mean exactly that.........porn with participants over 18.

 

Kiddie porn is illegal (to my knowledge), anyone selling kiddie porn should be jailed, and anyone buying kiddie porn should be registered as a sex offender.

[MetaFrizzics]

i actually wouldn't mind pornography being banned. i don't see the point of it. but that's just me.

Two problems:

 

a) who decides what is and isn't 'pornography'?

 

b) The three largest businesses in the world are: Guns, Drugs, Prostitution. (Trillions of Dollars) The market is massive and uncontrollable. Almost half the population of the earth is involved or gives passive consent. The main point of it as an activity is money.

[beautyundone]

Two problems:

 

a) who decides what is and isn't 'pornography'?

 

b) The three largest businesses in the world are: Guns' date=' Drugs, Prostitution. (Trillions of Dollars) The market is massive and uncontrollable. Almost half the population of the earth is involved or gives passive consent. The main point of it as an activity is money.[/quote']

 

 

yes, yes, yes. i know that. just personally, i wouldn't mind it being banned. i'm not saying it should or will be. merely stating my own opinion.

[Thomas Kirby]

I have been following this thread with interest and have seen some pretty intellegent questions and answers. I have not yet taken sides but I need to know something from you.

The statement quoted here and your reply above bothers me and maybe you can clarify.

 

A pedophile is a person who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children so my question to you is this. Do you believe the act of a person who rapes a child would be considered a monstrous act that should be dealt with severely?

 

Bettina

 

No I do not. I consider it a violent crime that should be dealt with severely. "Monstrous" places it in the realm of magic, where rational minds cannot deal with it at all. In cases like this, we need our rationality even worse than ever. One reason is so that we can deal with such cases in any manner that might even be mistaken for intelligently, and preferably in a manner that no one can look back and say "What a freaking circus." Another reason is so that we don't see so many monsters behind the bushes, at work, in school, or wherever, monsters that exist in our mind.

[Thomas Kirby]

yes, yes, yes. i know that. just personally, i wouldn't mind it being banned. i'm not saying it should or will be. merely stating my own opinion.

 

The problem with pornography being banned is that we will be right back where birth control information is banned and complete ignorance (rather than almost complete ignorance) reigns about human sexuality. Will it be better if we are so ignorant that a boy can come back from the boy's school with a sore bottom and we won't have a clue what the headmaster did to him?

[Pangloss]

So Thomas, since you agree that violent criminals can harm children, would you agree to removing criminals with a history of violence against young children (not sexual acts, mind you -- violent felonies) from hurricane shelters, with the stipulation that reception rooms and meeting facilities at a local prison would be made available as an alternative?

[Thomas Kirby]

So Thomas, since you agree that violent criminals can harm children, would you agree to removing criminals with a history of violence against young children (not sexual acts, mind you -- violent felonies) from hurricane shelters, with the stipulation that reception rooms and meeting facilities at a local prison would be made available as an alternative?

 

Would I be a terrible person if I said no?

[Pangloss]

No, and in fact I expect you to say no, on the basis of the criminals having already paid their debt to society. Which I think is a reasonable point, but what I was hoping to do is return the discussion to the issue of reasonable (fair) prevention with regard to minors (who can't protect themselves). In other words, to see if we can find some reasonable compromise that increases protection for children while maintaining fair treatment for former criminals.

 

(Edit: But far be it for me to put words in your mouth -- what do you think?)

[MetaFrizzics]

Yes, I think you have to make a distinction between healthy erotica and educational material, as well as optional recreational activity and lifestyle free choices, on the one hand, and dangerous public health concerns, criminal activity and harm to innocent non-consenting persons.

 

Also, given the wide range of intellect and suggestibility found in the populace at large, some management of information and regulation of what is made public knowledge or freely accessible is needed. Unfortunately, 'copycat crime', foolish and dangerous behaviour from a public health standpoint, is easily encouraged and imitated by the not so bright, or emotionally unstable.

 

Sometimes people need to be protected against themselves.

[Thomas Kirby]

No' date=' and in fact I expect you to say no, on the basis of the criminals having already paid their debt to society. Which I think is a reasonable point, but what I was hoping to do is return the discussion to the issue of reasonable (fair) prevention with regard to minors (who can't protect themselves). In other words, to see if we can find some reasonable compromise that increases protection for children while maintaining fair treatment for former criminals.

 

(Edit: But far be it for me to put words in your mouth -- what do [i']you[/i] think?)

 

The answer that these people have paid their "debt to society" is a good one. I often believe that society overcharges and pockets the difference. I want to be able to protect minors but the real threats are far more numerous and damaging than the threats posed by copping a feel, which most of the charges are about. Personally I think it is a neurotic delusion to believe that putting a hand on someone's butt is the same as raping them. A lot of capital is made promoting that delusion, too. It is extremely profitable in terms of money and power over people.

 

If we dealt realistically with real threats to the well-being of children, the picture would change drastically. Sex simply isn't the number one threat to the well-being of children. I'm not sure whether doctoring is the number one threat, schooling, or the forcing of a prolonged period of immaturity upon them. These threats form a connected system of deliberate physical and psychological damage to children. Overlaid upon this system is a system of ignorance and complacency. Ignorance makes it possible to not see what is threatening to children, to see threats where there are none, and to greatly exaggerate the impact of threats that actually exist.

[Pangloss]

Ok well that seems like a reasonable position to me.

 

So let me just break it down into a simple question. How would you go about protecting a Jessican Lunsford from a John Couey? Even though these cases are relatively rare, they do happen, and you seem to agree that they are terrible things. Are we to simply throw in the towel because the number of these cases are, in your view, "greatly exaggerated"? Or is there, in fact, something that we can do that even you would agree with?

 

(In case you're not familiar, or for the benefit of other readers if you are, Lunsford was a 9-year-old girl who was abducted and murdered by John Couey earlier this year in Florida. Couey had a history of similar offenses but had served his time.)

 

I guess what I'm asking you is this: Is there anything that society can do in terms of legislation that would improve protection of minors?

[Bettina]

Ok well that seems like a reasonable position to me.

 

So let me just break it down into a simple question. How would you go about protecting a Jessican Lunsford from a John Couey? Even though these cases are relatively rare' date=' they do happen, and you seem to agree that they are terrible things. Are we to simply throw in the towel because the number of these cases are, in your view, "greatly exaggerated"? Or is there, in fact, something that we can do that even you would agree with?

 

(In case you're not familiar, or for the benefit of other readers if you are, Lunsford was a 9-year-old girl who was abducted and murdered by John Couey earlier this year in Florida. Couey had a history of similar offenses but had served his time.)

 

[b']I guess what I'm asking you is this: Is there anything that society can do in terms of legislation that would improve protection of minors?[/b]

 

Me too. How would you protect girls like her. More than just murdered, she was tortured first..by a repeat offender like most are.

 

Bettina

 

Bettina

[beautyundone]

you never answered my question.

 

but my question is: do you think having sex with a child who did not give his/her consent is a crime?

 

i just want a YES or a NO. nothing else. unless you're responding to someone else, in which case, do so in a separate paragraph. i don't want an essay for this question, just a single word.

[Thomas Kirby]

Ok well that seems like a reasonable position to me.

 

So let me just break it down into a simple question. How would you go about protecting a Jessican Lunsford from a John Couey? Even though these cases are relatively rare' date=' they do happen, and you seem to agree that they are terrible things. Are we to simply throw in the towel because the number of these cases are, in your view, "greatly exaggerated"? Or is there, in fact, something that we can do that even you would agree with?

 

(In case you're not familiar, or for the benefit of other readers if you are, Lunsford was a 9-year-old girl who was abducted and murdered by John Couey earlier this year in Florida. Couey had a history of similar offenses but had served his time.)

 

[b']I guess what I'm asking you is this: Is there anything that society can do in terms of legislation that would improve protection of minors?[/b]

 

No frontal attack on a problem like this will work short of total effective control of the entire human population. If they achieve this, I hope that it is after I am dead. Even torturing me until I die of a heart attack is preferable to this state of affairs.

 

There has been a tremendous fight against knowing the causes of this kind of problem and dealing with it correctly. This fight has been pretty successful. No one dares talk about the frustration of the sexual impulse and the negative results of this frustration in the current atmosphere, especially anyone who has the credibility of a Ph.D. and wants to maintain any funding. This part of science has been cauterized.

 

No legislation aimed directly at this problem will work.

[Thomas Kirby]

you never answered my question.

 

but my question is: do you think having sex with a child who did not give his/her consent is a crime?

 

i just want a YES or a NO. nothing else. unless you're responding to someone else' date=' in which case, do so in a separate paragraph. i don't want an essay for this question, just a single word.[/quote']

 

YES