Is it possible that the exit point for all supermassive black holes is the event known as the Big Bang?

[georgenovak]

Since learning that the earth's core is years younger than its surface (due to gravity), I have begun thinking about how supermassive black holes may have an exit point that is chronologically as well as spatially distant from the singularity itself. If the expansion of the universe is related to time itself, than any regression in time goes back to a time period of a smaller universe. If you go back far enough (say 14 billion years), then the universe becomes a single point. It has been theorized that white holes may exist and those could be in the past as the massive gravity causes time regression for everything entering the singularity. So if a supermassive black hole produces a supermassive time effect, could that transport matter/energy back so far that the only exit point could be the Big Bang event?
Could this recycling of matter/energy also account for dark matter and quantum entanglement? I'm hoping someone can prove this wrong so I stop dwelling on it. Thanks!

[Strange]

7 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

Since learning that the earth's core is years younger than its surface (due to gravity)

Can you provide a reference for this?

8 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

If the expansion of the universe is related to time itself, than any regression in time goes back to a time period of a smaller universe. If you go back far enough (say 14 billion years), then the universe becomes a single point.

There is a big difference between the whole universe being a single point and a black hole. In the first case, the whole universe is compressed to a point and the distribution of mass throughout the universe is always (approximately) uniform. A black hole, on the other hand, consist of a concentration of mass within the universe. The mathematics (and physics) of these two situations are completely different. 

13 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

t has been theorized that white holes may exist and those could be in the past as the massive gravity causes time regression for everything entering the singularity.

Can you provide a reference for this, as well. I have never heard. Nothing like it. What is “time regression”?

15 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

So if a supermassive black hole produces a supermassive time effect, could that transport matter/energy back so far that the only exit point could be the Big Bang event?

At the event horizon of a black hole time “stops” from the point of view of a distant observer. (Hence the myth of things being “frozen” at the event horizon.)

Time does not go backwards. And, from the point of view of someone at the event horizon, it doesn’t even stop. 

[Phi for All]

I think many people get the idea that the event horizon around a black hole is like an entrance, so they reason their must be an exit. The EH just marks the boundary where spacetime becomes overwhelmingly curved due to the mass of the former star core having overcome degeneration pressure to become so tiny and dense. Past the EH, there simply isn't a path in space or time that doesn't lead to the degenerate matter. Time isn't regressed, but the future of anything that crosses the EH becomes inevitable. 

[georgenovak]

Awesome! Thank you for your input.

Earth younger at core

https://www.sciencealert.com/earth-s-core-is-2-5-years-younger-than-its-crust-thanks-to-the-curvature-of-space-time

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-earth-core-younger-thought.html

Universe expansion

What I mean is that according to current theory, the universe is expanding and has been expanding since the big bang. I think that means the universe 14 billion years ago was concentrated at one point. I'm still struggling with whether that one point was surrounded by an empty universe or if the actual entire universe was just that one small point. Maybe that's another central question.

White Holes

Sorry, I think I should have said time reversal

https://www.space.com/white-holes.html

event horizon of a black hole time “stops”

Are there any papers you can suggest regarding this hypothesis?  I understand that is subjective to the observer, but I'm curious to know what happens to the matter sucked into the singularity.

[Strange]

1 minute ago, Phi for All said:

Past the EH, there simply isn't a path in space or time that doesn't lead to the degenerate matter. Time isn't regressed, but the future of anything that crosses the EH becomes inevitable. 

To highlight this, the radial direction inside the event horizon is the time dimension: the singularity is in the future and us, therefore, unavoidable. 

[georgenovak]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think many people get the idea that the event horizon around a black hole is like an entrance, so they reason their must be an exit. The EH just marks the boundary where spacetime becomes overwhelmingly curved due to the mass of the former star core having overcome degeneration pressure to become so tiny and dense. Past the EH, there simply isn't a path in space or time that doesn't lead to the degenerate matter. Time isn't regressed, but the future of anything that crosses the EH becomes inevitable. 

I suppose my mind is trying to find a connection between 2 questions. Where does matter go when consumed by a black hole and where did all the energy of the big bang come from and why was it compressed.

[Strange]

37 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

Earth younger at core

https://www.sciencealert.com/earth-s-core-is-2-5-years-younger-than-its-crust-thanks-to-the-curvature-of-space-time

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-earth-core-younger-thought.html

 Ok. That makes sense. That is just gravitational time dilation: from the point of view of an observer on the surface of the Earth, a clock in the centre runs very slightly slower. But nothing goes “backward” in time, as you seem to be suggesting. 

40 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

What I mean is that according to current theory, the universe is expanding and has been expanding since the big bang. I think that means the universe 14 billion years ago was concentrated at one point. I'm still struggling with whether that one point was surrounded by an empty universe or if the actual entire universe was just that one small point. Maybe that's another central question.

The (observable) universe being concentrated at a single point is the conclusion from just naively extrapolating expansion back. In fact, our current physics doesn’t go that far back. All we can currently say is that the universe was once much hotter and denser than now. (And, yes, it was the whole universe that was compressed to a point. The universe is and always has been uniformly full of matter.)

43 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

White Holes

Sorry, I think I should have said time reversal

White holes can be described mathematically as time-reversed black holes but ... that does not mean that time goes backwards. And there is zero evidence that white holes exist (and good theoretical reasons to think they don’t).

46 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

event horizon of a black hole time “stops”

Are there any papers you can suggest regarding this hypothesis?  I understand that is subjective to the observer, but I'm curious to know what happens to the matter sucked into the singularity.

I’ll see if I can find something. But most descriptions are a bit exaggerated. 

42 minutes ago, georgenovak said:

I suppose my mind is trying to find a connection between 2 questions. Where does matter go when consumed by a black hole and where did all the energy of the big bang come from and why was it compressed.

We don’t know the answer to either of those. And perhaps never can. A quantum theory of gravity might tell us more. (Some attempts to add quantum theory to the Big Bang suggest that the universe is infinitely old - so it didn’t “come from” anywhere, it was always there). Or the Big Bang could have come from the collapse of an earlier universe. 

[Kartazion]

53 minutes ago, Strange said:

... But nothing goes “backward” in time, as you seem to be suggesting. 

https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0008036

[Strange]

9 hours ago, Kartazion said:

https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0008036

Firstly, the rules require that you do not just post links with no explanation.

An interpretation of quantum theory that uses backward causality does not involve anything travelling back in time.

It also hard to see how it is relevant to black holes. 

 

[Kartazion]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

Firstly, the rules require that you do not just post links with no explanation.

An interpretation of quantum theory that uses backward causality does not involve anything travelling back in time.

It also hard to see how it is relevant to black holes.

I saw something related to thermodynamics and black holes with the backward in time.

New law implies thermodynamic time runs backwards inside black holes 

[Strange]

9 minutes ago, Kartazion said:

I saw something related to thermodynamics and black holes with the backward in time.

New law implies thermodynamic time runs backwards inside black holes 

As it says, that is an artefact of the way black holes are defined. There is no actual backward time travel.

[Phi for All]

19 hours ago, georgenovak said:

I suppose my mind is trying to find a connection between 2 questions. Where does matter go when consumed by a black hole and where did all the energy of the big bang come from and why was it compressed.

Black holes are formed when gravitational inward force overcomes both the thermal pressure outward and the degeneracy pressure keeping electrons and neutrons from compressing. Two neutron stars could also combine to continue degeneracy and become a black hole. And of course, the maths show us that the extreme curvature of spacetime past the EH is enough to cause matter to instantly degenerate. 

Philosophy is better suited to "why" questions, but science observes that this process where stars sometimes lose their balance of inward and outward pressures is what distributes heavy elements around the galaxies. The universe thrives on equilibrium, it would seem, and matter appears capable of stability in two heavily compressed states as well as at normal densities.

[georgenovak]

20 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Black holes are formed when gravitational inward force overcomes both the thermal pressure outward and the degeneracy pressure keeping electrons and neutrons from compressing. Two neutron stars could also combine to continue degeneracy and become a black hole. And of course, the maths show us that the extreme curvature of spacetime past the EH is enough to cause matter to instantly degenerate. 

Philosophy is better suited to "why" questions, but science observes that this process where stars sometimes lose their balance of inward and outward pressures is what distributes heavy elements around the galaxies. The universe thrives on equilibrium, it would seem, and matter appears capable of stability in two heavily compressed states as well as at normal densities.

Does this mean that matter is compressed inside a black hole without gravity? I was under the impression that immense gravity would be required; and that could produce a time distortion.

I thought that Einstein determined that massive objects cause a distortion in space-time, which is felt as gravity.

[Strange]

1 hour ago, georgenovak said:

Does this mean that matter is compressed inside a black hole without gravity? I was under the impression that immense gravity would be required; and that could produce a time distortion.

I thought that Einstein determined that massive objects cause a distortion in space-time, which is felt as gravity.

I'm not sure how you got the "without gravity" idea from that post.

Gravity is, as you say, one of the ways we experience the curvature of spacetime. Black holes represent an extreme form of the curvature of space time (it becomes infinite at the singularity; which is a good indication that the theory no longer works at that point). So the only reason black holes exist is because of gravity/spacetime-curvature.

[zapatos]

On 1/6/2020 at 2:58 PM, georgenovak said:

Where does matter go when consumed by a black hole

 

On 1/6/2020 at 3:40 PM, Strange said:

We don’t know the answer

Can you explain what you mean by that Strange? It seems likely that matter consumed by a black hole is somewhere toward the center of the black hole. Are you referring to its structure being unknown? Or something else?

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, georgenovak said:

Does this mean that matter is compressed inside a black hole without gravity?

I obviously did a horrible job of explaining it if this is the impression I left you with. I described a "gravitational inward force" instead of just saying "gravity", to help with the concept of overcoming degeneracy and thermal pressures. Matter is (probably) compressed inside a BH because of the insanely curved spacetime past the EH. We feel curved spacetime as gravity.

Imagine you're approaching a star 100 times the size of our sun in a spaceship. As you get nearer, your options for selecting your course become limited. There are certain paths that would inevitably lead you straight into the sun, because you have a limited amount of energy to change your course. Most of your options DON'T lead to the sun, and of course you would choose one of those if you want to live. 

Now imagine the sun you're approaching went supernova long ago, forming a black hole. Outside the EH, the gravity is still similar to the sun when it was in main sequence. You still have many options for paths your engines can take around the BH. As you cross the event horizon however, spacetime become so curved that your engines don't have the energy to move you anywhere except straight to the degenerate matter at the heart. Your options for course rapidly become very limited. You don't have the energy to escape that single path, nothing does, not even light. Normal dimensions are both compressed and stretched to the extreme, due to so much mass in so small an area.

[georgenovak]

50 minutes ago, Strange said:

I'm not sure how you got the "without gravity" idea from that post.

Gravity is, as you say, one of the ways we experience the curvature of spacetime. Black holes represent an extreme form of the curvature of space time (it becomes infinite at the singularity; which is a good indication that the theory no longer works at that point). So the only reason black holes exist is because of gravity/spacetime-curvature.

My apologies, as I completely missed "gravitational" in the opening paragraph. Sometimes I read things too many times and make assumptions.

If gravity is the strong factor in black holes and gravity can affect space-time; then can I assume there could be a time distortion generated?

Does space-time curvature become infinite in all singularities or in a theoretical "perfect " black hole. If the gravitational power isn't absolute, then could some energy escape at potentially high speed?

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-famous-black-hole-jet-cosmic.html

Edited January 8, 2020 by georgenovak
wrong reply

[Strange]

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

 

Can you explain what you mean by that Strange? It seems likely that matter consumed by a black hole is somewhere toward the center of the black hole. Are you referring to its structure being unknown? Or something else?

The only (well tested and confirmed) theory we have for black holes is General Relativity. This says that all the matter that enters a black hole is compressed to an infinitely small singularity with infinite density. Therefore, this theory is almost certainly not correctly describing what happens. A theory of quantum gravity might tells us what happens to the mass inside a m black hole - although we can probably never confirm that directly. Unless it changes how we view the event horizon; it might turn out to be "porous" or not really exist or something.

(String theory describes the inside of a black hole as a "fuzzball", but until we have some way of testing string theory, we have no idea if that is any more realistic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzball_(string_theory))

6 hours ago, georgenovak said:

If gravity is the strong factor in black holes and gravity can affect space-time; then can I assume there could be a time distortion generated?

Both gravity and time dilation (and length contraction) are ways we perceive the curvature of spacetime. So it is not that gravity "affects" spacetime; but gravity is spacetime.

6 hours ago, georgenovak said:

Does space-time curvature become infinite in all singularities

I think only in the case of something like a black hole (where there is a concentration of mass in one place). I don't think it is true for the singularity in the big bang model, because in that case, mass is always uniformly distributed throughout the universe. (I may be wrong. I often am!)

6 hours ago, georgenovak said:

If the gravitational power isn't absolute, then could some energy escape at potentially high speed?

In our current theories nothing can escape from the inside of a black hole. Jets are generated outside the black hole.

[Mordred]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

 

I think only in the case of something like a black hole (where there is a concentration of mass in one place). I don't think it is true for the singularity in the big bang model, because in that case, mass is always uniformly distributed throughout the universe. (I may be wrong. I often am!)

 

The Cosmological Principle describes the above.

[Markus Hanke]

13 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You don't have the energy to escape that single path, nothing does, not even light.

Just to add to this - lack of energy isn’t really the reason why no escape is possible. Even if - hypothetically - you had an infinite amount of energy available to you, there still wouldn’t be any way out. Below the horizon of a Schwarzschild black hole, the geometry of spacetime is such that all future-directed word lines of test particles must inevitably terminate at the singularity (in the classical picture of GR), because space and time are related in such a way that ageing into the future always implies an in-falling in the radial direction. This is due to the geometry of spacetime itself, not lack of acceleration from your thrusters. The best you could do is to prolong your inevitable fate by firing your thrusters really hard, which slows down the radial in-fall, but cannot stop it - even remaining stationary at some r=const is not possible. 

The only way to escape such a black hole would be to time-travel backwards into the past, which, to the best of our current knowledge, is not physically possible. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Markus Hanke