DU conspiracies

[Thomas Kirby]

If anyone wants to insist that terrorists cannot make use of depleted uranium, answer this question: Why do they alloy uranium fuel with aluminum? What exactly does this do for the nuclear reactor? It's a rhetorical question for the experts here. This is what happens when you bombard aluminum with alpha particles.

[YT2095]

Alu`s crap, Beryllium`s the kick ass stuff

[swansont]

If anyone wants to insist that terrorists cannot make use of depleted uranium, answer this question: Why do they alloy uranium fuel with aluminum? What exactly does this do for the nuclear reactor? It's a rhetorical question for the experts here. This is what happens when you bombard aluminum with alpha particles.

 

You get neutrons. Approximately one for every ten billion you get from fission, when operating at power.

 

When you've shut a reactor down, so the fission rate is reeeeaaaaally small and induced fission is not producing a significant number of neutrons, you need neutrons from other sources (called, cryptically, source neutrons) to get the fission reactions going. So from that standpoint it's not unreasonable to alloy uranium with aluminum.

[swansont]

Alu`s crap, Beryllium`s the kick ass stuff

 

But it's nasty to machine in its pure state.

[Thomas Kirby]

My point is that depleted uranium can be made to emit neutrons, and how to do it is public knowledge. How to make this into a breeder reactor, however slow it might start, is also public knowledge.

[MulderMan]

Although that may be a threat with terrorists and the like. I think we should be encouraging people into science, not hiding facts.

[jdurg]

Comitting genocide is also highly possible, and how to do it is public knowledge. How to get all the people of the race/religion you don't like into one area so that they can be killed, however slow it might start, is also public knowledge.

[Thomas Kirby]

It also should be public knowledge that you very carefully test the theory that depleted uranium is safe. When an expert tells me that there is no need to actually measure this, that is frightening. When he dismisses the idea that someone can freely obtain this material and convert it into something dangerous, I am almost at a loss for words.

 

Real engineers actually find ways to measure the strains on steel girders in skyscrapers for one very good reason. Mathematical theories only work so well. Famous disasters and near disasters come about for the oddest reasons. It might be missing data, incomplete math, some fault in the design that becomes very obvious after tremendous loss of life and millions or even billions in property damage. It might be assuming that someone actually welded a structure instead of using bolts. They check everything out over and over again and find ways to know that their theories completely check with reality. This is among the simplest of mechanics and mistakes still occur.

 

It may well be time to pat me on the head and talk down to me like a child, but in my immaturity I still think that a thing like this is dangerous until proven, exhaustively, to be otherwise. I cannot be made to believe that depleted uranium does not do a slow burn when you put enough of it together unless someone actually does the measurements. I cannot believe that it is responsible to simply dismiss concerns that a terrorist will get a load of this stuff and make it into something lethal. I think that someone will get a hold of a few tons of this stuff, make it into thin sheets, make stacks of it with aluminum foil and paper, and even if they can't make bomb grade material, they can set it somewhere and irradiate an amazingly large area before anyone finds out. I think that any sort of satellite detection can be defeated with minimal effort for any stationary installation, and when someone does this, they can place it somewhere like in a rental apartment or office in a concrete building, leave it to quietly breed until it reaches a point where it can "flash" and sterilize an entire skyscraper of all life, and make it dangerously radioactive to its surroundings.

 

Let's hope that the terrorists believe the experts who say that this can't happen. I wouldn't want to rely on that, but if that's all we've got, that's all we've got.

 

So what happens when a neutron bomb hits close to depleted uranium?

[swansont]

What is your evidence that measurements haven't been made? People have been doing work with reactors for more than 50 years.

 

What is your evidence that DU is "freely available" ? I Froogled for it but only found books and glass vases that had trace amounts.

 

 

So what happens when a neutron bomb hits close to depleted uranium?

 

 

I think you're screwed no matter what is nearby when the bomb goes off.

 

I suspect you're the type that loses sleep over the possibility of a huge asteroid striking the earth, too.

[d22k]

i dont know where this mass histeria of "terrorists wanting to blow up the world" comes from, we are at far more risk from our governments than "terrorists"

 

YT, i read somewhere, i think it was in "surely your joking mr. Feynman" Plutonium is pretty safe really, although its usually coated in gallium to prevent pyrophoric reactions.

 

i seem to remember him playing with a ball of it, and handing it to a friend of his...

 

although if inhaled, its one of the worst carcinogens known to man.... otherwise, harmless.

[Thomas Kirby]

Aw, you're just trying to get on my good side.

 

There are some things that I am not worried about enough to feel that it is necessary for the government to "take action" to prevent. The bombings in London and 9/11 are some of these things. Why so? They hit very few people compared to either the population involved or the casualties involved in war, and these events take place at most two or three times per decade.

 

They don't have the far-reaching effects that radioactive contamination of the planet does. We simply don't know how much illness has been caused by the testing of nuclear bombs, or what other damage. The denials are too glib and contain too much deliberate misdirection and too much secrecy. There is too much waltzing around. I do not trust the deniers. I do not trust people who are supposed to be experts who play with people's minds instead of giving straight answers.

 

The improbability of a terrorist organization, or a rogue government organization, using the easily obtained uranium to create a destructive device and actually detonating it is just about the same as the probability that they will find doing so to be of benefit to their given programs. I don't even know where anyone gets the idea that it is improbable. I am not the only person in the world who will notice that a lot of usable uranium is being allowed to be shipped around unmonitored. With a half-life of 4.5 billion years, which is not as impressive as some might think considering that the half-life of the "hot" stuff is 700,000 years, a million grams of the stuff is as radioactive as one gram of something that emits the same kind of radiation and has a half-life of 4500 years. One million grams is one metric ton. Gamma radiation penetrates several inches of steel.

 

Where is my evidence that measurements haven't been made? No one will present the evidence that they have, not even an expert who says that they don't need to be made, but who I am sure would rub my nose in them if they existed. When someone cites evidence but they don't know where it is, and they can't find it, and I don't need to see it, I don't want to say all the words for what a sensible person calls that act.

 

So I take it that you didn't find any of the references that I found to the use of depleted uranium as counterweights in forklifts. You also didn't find the references to the use of uranium in aprons used to shield dentists and doctors from X-rays. The same source, the incredibly credible U.S. government, also says that this material is used as ballast in 747 airplanes and large yachts and sailboats. This is beginning to look as if someone could figure out buy or steal this material if they knew how to use Google, like for "uses of depleted uranium." They could literally get all they could carry.

 

What does it say about you that you would use my concerns about asteroid impacts, which you haven't heard yet, to ridicule me? Jeez. Within living memory are a 40 megaton impact over Tunguska and another such suspected event over Greenland just recently. There is much solid evidence that damaging impacts can happen and do happen. How does it even occur to anyone to put concerns about that in the tinfoil hat category? I don't know about you but after all this crap that humankind has gone through the last few millenia, I would like to see us get on top of this kind of thing long enough to start growing up. Do you mind?

 

And the scenario I describe uses materials that are easily available and the active materials are becoming more and more available. We are growing a blind spot at the same time law enforcement is absolutely bonkers about terrorism, to the point of using anti-terrorism legislation against pornography. I will freely accuse certain less visible forces of saving this one up to be one of the big ones, where they ask us to give up an even larger fraction of our freedoms for an illusion of safety.

 

 

 

What is your evidence that measurements haven't been made? People have been doing work with reactors for more than 50 years.

 

What is your evidence that DU is "freely available" ? I Froogled for it but only found books and glass vases that had trace amounts.

 

 

I think you're screwed no matter what is nearby when the bomb goes off.

 

I suspect you're the type that loses sleep over the possibility of a huge asteroid striking the earth' date=' too.[/quote']

[Thomas Kirby]

And I just had to say this, because it just occurred to me. I wonder how long it will be before someone notices that a given area contaminated by DU HAS A CONSPICUOUS LACK OF COCKROACHES?

[swansont]

Damn. Who'd have thought it would be the cockroaches that toppled this government conspiracy?

 

Bananas are radioactive, too. Obsess on that for a while.

[YT2095]

erm... I Could be wrong, but I`m fairly certain Uranium is actualy Toxic From a Chemical standpoint, it`s More likely that is the cause (if there`s any to be had), than from a source of radiation, Roaches are quite hardy in that respect and can take doses much higher by body weight than we can.

 

just an alternative suggestion of causality

[ed84c]

Cockroaches having a radiation tolerance is an urban myth.

 

What they do do however is live in deep cracks underground in concrete, and in the event of a nuclear war, they would (after pretty much the world is destroyed) colonise the world.

 

Why Cockroaches? They are detritivours, and there aint gonna be much else left. (at least until plants grow again, but by then cockroaches will have colonised the earth). Plus cockroaches breed really fast.

[YT2095]

Cockroaches having a radiation tolerance is an urban myth.

 

can you support this at all, I`de be interested in reading about it

[ed84c]

Ill find a link, or photocopy it out of the book.

 

but mean while, ammuse your self with this;

 

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0306-01.htm

[jdurg]

Did you also know that exposure to the sun can cause cancer? What if those terrorists figured out a way to make everyone get out into the sunlight? The cancer rates throughout the world would skyrocket! How can I sleep at night?!!!!!

 

As for your question about a neutron bomb near depleted uranium, the answer is 'NOTHING!'. The neutrons would be moving far too fast for the uranium to absorb any, not to mention the fact that the only part of the uranium which would even see the neutrons is the exterior surface. You may wind up with three or four atoms of plutonium if that happened. Getting U-238 to absorb a neutron is not freaking easy. You have to moderate the neutron and slow it down to the proper speed, then you have to hope that it gets absorbed properly. It's not a 100% success rate. If it was, then countries would have no problem producing plutonium on a massive scale. People would produce plutonium in their backyards and have no problem with it. Also, depleted urnaium is used as a tampering material in fission bombs. That's because U-238 is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more effective at reflecting neutrons than absorbing them. Surrounding the fuel with the U-238 makes sure that all the neutrons can be absorbed by the U-235 and that the bomb goes critical. I don't understand why you think it's a piece of cake and no problem at all to make plutonium out of U-238. Do you think the terrorists don't have access to the internet? I can guarantee you they know a LOT more about the stuff than you do, or many of the members of this forum do. However, they haven't done anything with it, have they? Why could that be? BECAUSE IT'S NOT AS EASY AND EFFICIENT AS YOU MAKE IT OUT TO BE!

 

Go to the United States' Nuclear Regulatory Commission and do some reading on the legality behind depleted uranium. At no time is a private individual allowed to possess more than 1 pound of the stuff without a license. Over the course of a year, one is allowed to own only up to about 15 pounds without needing a license. Every place that uses depleted uranium has to be reported to the government. So those dentists, those labs, those hospitals all report to the NRC. You can't just walk in there and get depleted uranium. I've tried. They simply cannot sell it or give it away. The only way I got my depleted uranium was because I was in the right place at the right time.

 

If you are worried about terrorists gathering depleted uranium and making plutonium out of it, then you should just lock yourself up in a lead lined shelter and never see the light of day. Those fears are unfounded and simply obsurd. Please take a few courses in quantum mechanics and nuclear chemistry/physics. An individual can take anything and make a case about why it's wrong and harmful. Give me a few minutes and I can put together an article about how water is a dangerous chemical and can be used to wreak utter havoc on a civilized nation.

[swansont]

Cockroaches having a radiation tolerance is an urban myth.

 

Not according to this

[ed84c]

im working on it. Its a partiall truth i think, they can survive underground, where the radiation is weaker, but still enough to kill a human.

 

The myth that most people think that if you nuke a roach it wont die, it will.

[YT2095]

The myth that most people think that if you nuke a roach it wont die, it will.

 

is that a fact too?

I don`t know ANYONE that thinks that!

[Thomas Kirby]

So, Jdurg, you think that there is adequate monitoring of the U-238 that is used in forklifts and as ballast for boats and aircraft? My God, even knowing that U-238 is incorporated into aircraft, not only making them well-balanced, but also making them into the world's largest tank penetrator rounds...

 

When did I ever say it was easy? Why would it have to be easy? I'm not paid enough to try to sneak a few tons of DU into a cave and hammer or otherwise work it into thin sheets. I don't have the money to build a bunch of Farnsworth fusors to irradiate it to convert a portion of it into Pu-239, nor would I try this with more than a milligram or so, and a milligram may be more than I want. However, someone with a lot of time on his hands and some funding could find a way to get this breeder reactor going. Thin sheets of uranium, aluminum pressed right up against it, stack it with some form of carbon in thin sheets, and pile it up higher and higher. Put it inside a large enough mass of the stuff, and a neutron will either be captured or split a nucleus and continue the reaction.

 

I would rather deal with this possibility now on my own terms than wait for the government to make the mess out of it that it usually does. It's a little too simple: Don't spread the stuff around. It should have all been kept under guard forever. It never should have been used in bullets, tank armor, or anything. It should never have been allowed to be spread around the world in ton quantities. We talk big about how we need these technologically superior rounds but much of the equipment we sent into Iraq couldn't even be driven on sand and why did we even have a ground war when we are supposedly so technologically superior anyway?

[jdurg]

The thing is, there's enough raw uranium lying around this earth to make many places naturally 'iffy' regardless of any DU used in the areas. A friend of mine who I play cards with on a weekly basis works at an airport. Any time any form of aircraft comes in to the airport and DU is used as a counterweight, they have to weigh the DU to make sure that all of it is there. There's a long audit trail on who touched it last. I think a lot of people have a tough time truly understanding how it is all tracked. Also, if people have the ability to turn DU into plutonium, then they also have the ability to turn uranium ore into plutonium. There is no tracking of uranium ore, as many people can just go into their backyard and dig into the ground to get some.

[ed84c]

is that a fact too?

I don`t know ANYONE that thinks that!

 

Maybe what im getting at is their tollerance to radiation is NOT THE ONLY reason for their surivial.

 

Where they hide, and being detritivors is also a factor.

[YT2095]

Maybe what im getting at is their tollerance to radiation is NOT THE ONLY reason for their surivial.

 

it was never suggested that it was.