Flux Capacitor question

[YT2095]

just for a bit of fun, I tried to consider what a "Flux Capacitor" might entail, then I came up with a more basic question.

 

I considered the "Flux" part to be of the Magnetic sort (as opposed to Solder, LOL).

 

I don`t understand how magnets "Work" exactly, but I know that you can magnetise an object like an iron nail quite easily using another magnet.

 

But... Does doing that take anything away from the original magnet at all?

Or could you magnetise bags full of them "forever" so to speak?

sort of a way to Store magnetisim (like a capacitor).

[mezarashi]

Interestingly, I believe yes. The magnet is and forever will be a magnet regardless of how many things you use it to magnetize. The permanent magnet itself was created by being exposed to a strong magnetic field at high temperatures while the magnetic materials electrons could align themselves to the external magnetic field. Then cooling down, the electrons orbits are "locked" (quantum physicists would probably prefer referring to the quantum numbers like the magnetic spin) in their positions that give rise to a net magnetic field within the vicinity of the newly created magnet. To a certain extent, most materials that are attracted to magnets will remain magnetized due to the hysterisis effect.

 

As for the capacitor, I think the better example you are looking for is the permanently charged dielectric as used in many microphones. It has a permanent charge the same way a magnet has a permanent magnetic field.

[YT2095]

Thanx Nice Answer

 

the capacitor part, was merely the initial Thought experiment really, I`m certain that a "Flux Capacitor" will remain in the domain of Hollywood for a good while yet

 

it`s interesting about the magnets not actualy Loosing anything though!

so in effect you could magnetise lots of small square cross section iron bars and stick them all together and make a HUGE magnet then, all from one small one... I`m going to have to think about this for a while, Fascinating!

[YT2095]

Thought about.

 

it would seem that magnets cannot "Breed" without the input of external energy then, the act of making the D shaped stroking action over each individual iron bar would be that input, otherwise just leaving the magnet in the center of them all would have the same effect, and it clearly doesn`t.

 

so Magnetism coupled with Movement is what`s required in order to "Store" or "Breed" them.

 

sound about right?

[danny8522003]

That would make sense yea. Where does the energy from the magnetism come from? I.e. the energy is converted to kinetic energy to attract an object but where does it come from?

[H2SO4]

you know, maybe theres a way to use the fact that magnets can magnetize certain metals to produce electricity. It would be a very clean source of electricity.

[Klaynos]

Magnets have to be moving to induce an electronic charge in something (spinning magnets in motors)...

 

Just on a side note I belive that magnets do degrade over time, the rate of decay does depend on the material.

[YT2095]

you know, maybe theres a way to use the fact that magnets can magnetize certain metals to produce electricity. It would be a very clean source of electricity.

 

it`s Called a Generator )

[ydoaPs]

just for a bit of fun' date=' I tried to consider what a "Flux Capacitor" might entail, then I came up with a more basic question.

 

I considered the "Flux" part to be of the Magnetic sort (as opposed to Solder, LOL).[/quote']i thought it was "temporal flux" or some other technobabble

[mezarashi]

In practice, experience suggests that magnets will and do degrade over time, but theoretically speaking, there is no reason why they have to. The fact that they do not they can limitlessly magnetize other objects does not (as far as I can see) violate any thermodynamics or energy conservation laws. The ability to attract objects is the conversion of a sort of "magnetic potential" into kinetic energy. It can only happen once, and never again in a perpetual cycle. Correct me if you can find something to prove otherwise

[ydoaPs]

iirc, the magnetic domains randomise over time.

[YT2095]

well if we say a magnet lasts 100 years for arguments sake, in that time you could make so many little smaller magnets that in turn when put together make a larger magnet that can be used to magnetise even larger peices and so on...

 

so could you in theory could take a small baby magnet and make one the size of the empire state building over time?

[ydoaPs]

if you magnetize something, it won't be as strong as the thing that magnitised it.

[YT2095]

I agree, it will always be X percentage less than the original.

however, when these smaller ones are stuck together correctly, even a weaker magnetic force over a large surface area could "pick up" something heavier than the original baby magnet you started off with

[MetaFrizzics]

It seems you are slipping into the 'perpetual motion' realm of flako-science.

 

(1) Magnets don't give you something for nothing, even if that something is 'spin'. You cannot get more spin out of the magnet by proximity. Obviously you can stroke a piece of iron to magnetize it by creating a 'moving' magnetic field that in turn induces a current. In this case, the energy comes from your action of stroking, and all the magnet does is provide a mechanism for energy conversion like a pulley or lever. The magnet cannot actually 'magnetize' other objects.

 

(2) Magnets lose their magnetism through the 2nd law of thermodynamics like most other objects or manifestations of 'order' (really local low-entropy reservoirs). Eventually, they turn to crap through a process of randomization of spin momenta. This process can be sped up by using a varying electro-magnet driven by A.C., as is done in an erase-head on a tape-recorder, or a de-gaussing circuit on a computer monitor.

 

Magnets don't give birth to little baby magnets without a lot of energy consumption, just like with real babies.

[YT2095]

It seems you are slipping into the 'perpetual motion' realm of flako-science.

 

(1) Magnets don't give you something for nothing' date=' even if that something is 'spin'. You cannot get more spin out of the magnet by proximity. Obviously you can stroke a piece of iron to magnetize it by creating a 'moving' magnetic field that in turn induces a current. In this case, the energy comes from your action of stroking, and all the magnet does is provide a mechanism for energy conversion like a pulley or lever. The magnet cannot actually 'magnetize' other objects.

 

(2) Magnets lose their magnetism through the 2nd law of thermodynamics like most other objects or manifestations of 'order' (really local low-entropy reservoirs). Eventually, they turn to crap through a process of randomization of spin momenta. This process can be sped up by using a varying electro-magnet driven by A.C., as is done in an erase-head on a tape-recorder, or a de-gaussing circuit on a computer monitor.

 

Magnets don't give birth to little baby magnets without a lot of energy consumption, just like with real babies.[/quote']

 

what the SMEG are you on your high horse about now????

have you actualy READ the thread so far?

or more to the point read it in CONTEXT!

 

there`s no "wako-science" involved here at all (the fact you don`t understand the point probably serves to bear this out!).

 

no one said you`de get something for nothing or even hinted at perpetual motion!

you can permanently magnetise a peice of steel with another magnet no problem at all, we used to do it to our screwdrivers all the time for getting into narrow places that were vertical to pull the screw out, so don`t tell me it can`t be done or it`s about current and garbage, it`s about magnet pull to allign domains in the steel, and if you HAD have read the thread you`de have seen that we`de established the "something for nothing, energy input" already!

 

as for point #2 we already established that too!

 

So... your point or contribution is?

[ydoaPs]

I agree' date=' it will always be X percentage less than the original.

however, when these smaller ones are stuck together correctly, even a weaker magnetic force over a large surface area could "pick up" something heavier than the original baby magnet you started off with [/quote']iirc, it would still be weaker

 

you can permanently magnetise a peice of steel with another magnet no problem at all' date=' we used to do it to our screwdrivers all the time for getting into narrow places that were vertical to pull the screw out, so don`t tell me it can`t be done or it`s about current and garbage, it`s about magnet pull to allign domains in the steel[/quote']

that isn't permanant. i don't like the term permanant magnet because it makes it seem that it is magnatized forever. the magnetic domains do randomize over time.

[YT2095]

we know this, if you read post #12 the 1`st sentence states it!

[J.C.MacSwell]

I think (?) if you used proximity alone then randomization of the parent will result from magnetization of the baby. Of course you can create parentless babies by producing magnetic fields and we seem to be discussing a mixture of the two processes.

 

Of course this is not perpetual motion and I have no idea how YT got that idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(just kidding YT )

[Scootie]

In my high school physics class we once talked about the movie Back To The Future and time travel. My teacher was pointing out the "bad physics" in Hollywood, but he did mention that a real "Flux Capacitor" DOES exist. He didn't mention what it was used for, only that the term "Flux" referred to magnetism.

[ydoaPs]

from the term "Flux Capacitor" i would assume it somehow stores magnetism.

[mmalluck]

So you mean an inductor? It utilizes magentic flux and in a sence stores it.

 

You could store a magentic field indefinatly if you had a inductor made out of a perfect conductor.

[MetaFrizzics]

what the SMEG are you on your high horse about now????

have you actualy READ the thread so far?

or more to the point read it in CONTEXT!

Oopsy. My bad.

It seemed the thread was drifting into Creationism, or worse: Jehovah's Witness Science.

Sorry again.

If you can't make out this post, its because I am talking with my foot in my mouth.