Solve the climate crisis: A thought experiment

[studiot]

2 hours ago, wallflash said:

So if you can be more specific I would be glad to see what I can do  . I have the facts on my side , so I do not mind presenting them if I know which ones are desired, and I know that they will be duly considered and not summarily rejected because they do not say what the questioner desires

You say you want to discuss solutions, but I don't see any solutions in your posts.
 

All I see is moaning about the problems.

 

I consider that the solutions will not come from any one single direction or action, but from a combination of sevaral, if not many.

So we might reduce consumption, perhaps by efficiencey, perhaps by removing the need for some goods or services or by reducing waste, or by better technology.

See we are already into combinations of multiple actions.

In Europe it is already mandatory  (forbidden) to install fossil fuel heaters in new housing in somecountries and it is proposed for the UK.

You are worried that will throw an extra unacceptable load onto the electricity supply.

But will it? Here is my experience.

In 2016 I replaced my aged and failed gas boiler with an electric heat pump.
I have been monitoring performance since then so I now have four years of performance data, of the heat pump and a 30 year previous averaging to compare it with.
Not only am I now using less energy than the previous combined electric and gas total, I am barely using more electricity than before. (This was a pleasant suprise)
Certainly my demand is still well within the parameters submitted when I signed up for this electricity supply 30 years ago.

[wallflash]

22 minutes ago, studiot said:

You say you want to discuss solutions, but I don't see any solutions in your posts.
 

All I see is moaning about the problems.

 

I consider that the solutions will not come from any one single direction or action, but from a combination of sevaral, if not many.

So we might reduce consumption, perhaps by efficiencey, perhaps by removing the need for some goods or services or by reducing waste, or by better technology.

See we are already into combinations of multiple actions.

In Europe it is already mandatory  (forbidden) to install fossil fuel heaters in new housing in somecountries and it is proposed for the UK.

You are worried that will throw an extra unacceptable load onto the electricity supply.

But will it? Here is my experience.

In 2016 I replaced my aged and failed gas boiler with an electric heat pump.
I have been monitoring performance since then so I now have four years of performance data, of the heat pump and a 30 year previous averaging to compare it with.
Not only am I now using less energy than the previous combined electric and gas total, I am barely using more electricity than before. (This was a pleasant suprise)
Certainly my demand is still well within the parameters submitted when I signed up for this electricity supply 30 years ago.

Sorry , no moaning at all from me  

I stated in the OP that I would like to hear  possible solutions AND hear about the societal and economic impacts , AND have them rated from strongly positive to disastrously negative . The point being not to just come up with ideas , but to see how workable in reality those ideas would be . I suspect most aren’t that workable in reality , and not much I’ve seen here alters that opinion . 

 

I could have been wrong in insisting on a 5 yr out limit . Obviously the real solution will be more gradual and take longer , but I did it in specific response to the oft heard cries that we must do something NOW or unavoidable disaster awaits us . From what I’m seeing there is not much past a slight move to renewable energy that we can do NOW , despite the stridency that we must do so . Real workable solutions will be gradual, expensive , and take time . Maybe 20-25 yrs, maybe more . 

 

It is/was a thought experiment on IMMEDIATE actions, if any were found to be available that would actually work . 

 

I can guarantee from experience that moving to total electric will increase the load . I am in the business . If I build a house that has gas heat and appliances , I can get by installing a 100 amp service if desired by the owner . If the house is all electric I must install a 200 amp service at minimum , on a standard size house . There is a reason for this . In addition, the code used to be that in connecting a mobile home if it had gas heat you could put it on a minimum 60 amp breaker . If electric heat , even with all other gas appliances , it had to be 100 amp. So over 50% increase anticipated by the electrical, moving to double , just on heat alone .  I think the 60 minimum might have been eliminated , but it illustrates my point nonetheless . 

The electric companies can also guarantee you this fact . If you build a house around here not immediately in the area of a power line , and apply for electric service , you have to fill out a form describing the square footage , all your major appliances , with which ones will be in gas and which ones on electric . The purpose is for them to calculate how much electricity they will be able to sell you, and measure that against the cost of building in to your house . They have a formula that calculates the payback over  x number of years . If they don’t show them selling you enough electricity to meet getting your connection for free , you must pay the difference up front out of your pocket . Their calculations specifically take into account that you will use more electricity in a total electric home than one with gas appliances, which is why you must give them this info . 

BTW , I will be shortly leaving for a weekend camping trip . A lack of response over a couple of days does not mean anything more than I am in the woods not looking at the Internet  

 

Everyone have a nice enjoyable weekend . Sincerely  

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by wallflash

[studiot]

8 minutes ago, wallflash said:

I can guarantee from experience that moving to total electric will increase the load . I am in the business . If I build a house that has gas heat and appliances , I can get by installing a 100 amp service if desired by the owner . If the house is all electric I must install a 200 amp service at minimum , on a standard size house . There is a reason for this . In addition, the code used to be that in connecting a mobile home if it had gas heat you could put it on a minimum 60 amp breaker . If electric heat , even with all other gas appliances , it had to be 100 amp. So over 50% increase anticipated by the electrical, moving to double , just on heat alone .  I think the 60 minimum might have been eliminated , but it illustrates my point nonetheless

So how do you explain my electricity consumption figures?

BTW my heat pump runs off a new (ie additional)  32 amp breaker. (remember UK mains are at 240 volts)

Edited January 24, 2020 by studiot

[wallflash]

3 minutes ago, studiot said:

So how do you explain my electricity consumption figures?

BTW my heat pump runs off a 32 amp breaker. (remember UK mains are at 240 volts)

 

 

No offense , ( and I do truly mean it ) , but I don’t need to address one example . I have the electrical code and the electric company rules on building to your house to back me up . You must explain why the code requires a larger electrical service on a total electric home if the amount used will be the same as a gas appliance home . 

Edited January 24, 2020 by wallflash

[studiot]

Just now, wallflash said:

 

 

No offense , but I don’t need to address one example . I have the electrical code and the electric company rules on building to your house to back me up . You must explain why the code requires a larger electrical service on a total electric home if the amount used will be the same as a gas appliance home . 

You have your code, but do you understand it ?

Why do you think so many people are now installing heat pumps? Have you heard of coefficient of performance?

To quote the OP of this thread, "I don't have to explain ......."

 

Have a nice weekend camp and relaxation.

 

Perhaps when you return next week you might be prepared to take some notice of what others are telling you.

[wallflash]

18 minutes ago, studiot said:

You have your code, but do you understand it ?

Why do you think so many people are now installing heat pumps? Have you heard of coefficient of performance?

To quote the OP of this thread, "I don't have to explain ......."

 

Have a nice weekend camp and relaxation.

 

Perhaps when you return next week you might be prepared to take some notice of what others are telling you.

After 40 yrs , 30 of them holding a master license , yes, I understand it  . Again, disagreement with others does not equal lack of knowledge, especially in my day job I’ve done for 40 yrs . 

 

Heat pumps vs electric heaters is not an issue . Moving gas heat to electric is . Let’s stay with the topic please . The efficiency of a heat pump over conventional electric heat has no relevance to moving from gas heat to electric heat .

 

I am , BTW, paying close attention to what others tell me . The fact that I don’t agree does not indicate inattention, it indicates I feel my facts are more correct , AND I have posted out where I believe this to be so . 

[swansont]

39 minutes ago, wallflash said:

No offense , ( and I do truly mean it ) , but I don’t need to address one example . I have the electrical code and the electric company rules on building to your house to back me up . You must explain why the code requires a larger electrical service on a total electric home if the amount used will be the same as a gas appliance home . 

Anecdotes for me, but not for thee...

[wallflash]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Anecdotes for me, but not for thee...

The electrical code is not anecdotal . Feel free to get a copy and read it . It has an entire section on building load calculations based on sq footage and type of equipment being installed    Neither is the power company requirements. Go to your local power company and ask if they calculate total electric and gas homes differently when figuring their return on investment in building to a house not immediately on the grid . My claims on the grid system were also substantiated by 2 different links . 

 

Not a single anecdotal claim in these, my friend  

 

As far as I can tell, the only anecdotal claim I have made is regarding the 8000 amp service the power company refused to install. This also can be checked for accuracy. Go to your power company and tell them you are building a 2000 sq ft office building and want a 2000 amp service so you know your service will be adequate under all conditions. After you submit your load calculations to them , come back here and let us know what size they would actually install

Edited January 25, 2020 by wallflash

[swansont]

11 hours ago, wallflash said:

The electrical code is not anecdotal . Feel free to get a copy and read it . It has an entire section on building load calculations based on sq footage and type of equipment being installed    Neither is the power company requirements. Go to your local power company and ask if they calculate total electric and gas homes differently when figuring their return on investment in building to a house not immediately on the grid . My claims on the grid system were also substantiated by 2 different links . 

 

Not a single anecdotal claim in these, my friend  

We’re discussing power use. What does the code say about how much power I used last month? 
 

 

11 hours ago, wallflash said:

As far as I can tell, the only anecdotal claim I have made is regarding the 8000 amp service the power company refused to install. This also can be checked for accuracy. Go to your power company and tell them you are building a 2000 sq ft office building and want a 2000 amp service so you know your service will be adequate under all conditions. After you submit your load calculations to them , come back here and let us know what size they would actually install

It’s all anecdotal. 

[studiot]

18 hours ago, wallflash said:

Heat pumps vs electric heaters is not an issue . Moving gas heat to electric is . Let’s stay with the topic please . The efficiency of a heat pump over conventional electric heat has no relevance to moving from gas heat to electric heat .

 

Thank you for confirming my growing impression that you are not willing to discuss in a rational and Scientific manner.

In my opinion, this is a great pity because this could have been a most enlightening thread with its starting position that far too little of the coordinated action necessary to combat clmate change is being enacted.
The pity is all the greater since common sense suggests that these measures are what we should be doing anyway for several equally valid reasons against other real and potential dangers to our society and way of life or even perhaps our very existence.
Sadly climate discussion seem all to often to degenerate into petty point scoring.

I cannot therefore see any point continuing this thread.

[Strange]

20 hours ago, wallflash said:

Heat pumps vs electric heaters is not an issue . Moving gas heat to electric is . Let’s stay with the topic please . The efficiency of a heat pump over conventional electric heat has no relevance to moving from gas heat to electric heat .

I would have thought it is highly relevant. One way of encouraging consumers (and house builders) to move from gas to electric heating is to show that it is competitive economically. One way of making electric heating more efficient is to move to heat pumps rather than heaters.

Can you explain why you consider it irrelevant?

(Once again, you seem to have decided what the "right answer" is and everything else is dismissed as wrong or irrelevant.)