Debt-free College (Yang's Plan) - Split

[J.C.MacSwell]

24 minutes ago, iNow said:

If there is, it’s terribly off topic 

Quite possibly, but how would we know that? If it's more than a comment we can look at opening a thread. If it's because, say, Yang doesn't wear ties that would hardly be worthwhile.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/student-loan-debt/

[MigL]

Thanks for the info, INow.
( what can I say, I'm lazy )

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Any particular reason?

Two Canadians in his corner might be seen as some kind of 'collusion'.
Besides, I've always liked E Warren.

[iNow]

Then talk about Yangs plan and how it compares to what we’ve been discussing. Don’t reply to an off the cuff comment about not being able to root for Yang, ask why, amd expect us all to read between the lines that you meant in context of this topic. 

i asked these Yang posts to be moved to the Democratic primary thread. Feel free to post specifically about the debt free tuition component of Yangs candidacy here. 

X-posted with migL

[J.C.MacSwell]

15 hours ago, iNow said:

Don’t reply to an off the cuff comment about not being able to root for Yang, ask why, amd expect us all to read between the lines that you meant in context of this topic. 

You're admonishment is longer, and just as off topic. 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

So, what are the key elements of Yangs debt free college plan we should discuss? 

[CharonY]

I actually checked the Yang website where he proposes to reduce tuition fees, and it seems that for the most part he is barking up the wrong tree.

He wants universities to reduce administrative positions, but quite a few studies indicate that while it contributes to cost, it is not the main driver and also it is not clear how he wants to force unis to restructure that way. He wants to collect additional data and somehow link tuition fees with salary outcomes, but it is absolute not clear how that is going to work. University costs are distinct from the salary potential of graduates so one would need to change uni from a teaching/research environment to vocational training system mostly run by sessionals. There a few other points which do not make sense whatsoever (wants presidents to discuss job prospects with alumni- why?). As such it is not clear how that is supposed to increase teaching quality at the same time.

And the biggest missing bit is that there is no serious element of federal funding (other than investing in innovative and growing schools??), which is actually one important driver of tuition costs. That section is a bit symptomatic why  I have some issues with Yang on certain topics- it reminds me too much of a techbro sales pitch- it propose relatively easy solutions often targeting superficial issues, but failing to actually address the issues it promises to solve.

[J.C.MacSwell]

21 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I actually checked the Yang website where he proposes to reduce tuition fees, and it seems that for the most part he is barking up the wrong tree.

He wants universities to reduce administrative positions, but quite a few studies indicate that while it contributes to cost, it is not the main driver and also it is not clear how he wants to force unis to restructure that way. He wants to collect additional data and somehow link tuition fees with salary outcomes, but it is absolute not clear how that is going to work. University costs are distinct from the salary potential of graduates so one would need to change uni from a teaching/research environment to vocational training system mostly run by sessionals. There a few other points which do not make sense whatsoever (wants presidents to discuss job prospects with alumni- why?). As such it is not clear how that is supposed to increase teaching quality at the same time.

And the biggest missing bit is that there is no serious element of federal funding (other than investing in innovative and growing schools??), which is actually one important driver of tuition costs. That section is a bit symptomatic why  I have some issues with Yang on certain topics- it reminds me too much of a techbro sales pitch- it propose relatively easy solutions often targeting superficial issues, but failing to actually address the issues it promises to solve.

Many of his policy proposals are simply outlining his thoughts. I think this is, or should be, a good thing in many cases, where he doesn't expect to dictate the details.

I know I'm in the OP, but I didn't start this thread. (I do think he is the most capable candidate, including on this subject, in the actual POTUS role to address it)

+1 for the post

+2 if I could, for checking out his website 

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Many of his policy proposals are simply outlining his thoughts. I think this is, or should be, a good thing in many cases, where he doesn't expect to dictate the details.

In this case it does, unfortunately, shows that his thoughts are not terribly well informed, which in turn makes me more skeptical about his thoughts on subjects that I know less about.

[J.C.MacSwell]

42 minutes ago, CharonY said:

In this case it does, unfortunately, shows that his thoughts are not terribly well informed, which in turn makes me more skeptical about his thoughts on subjects that I know less about.

I think he is actually very well informed and has good incites. Would you prefer his thoughts to be finalized but off base?

Do you think that Biden, Sanders, or (LOL, can he find Kansas City on a map?) Trump are better informed on the subject circa 2020?

How about Buttigieg?

Warren obviously has a background on this...but while she takes a narrative, always, Yang looks to evaluate the problem. He doesn't expect or want you to fall in line, never mind berate your ideas if they don't align. 

I know it's a different approach...not assuming you're right about everything but still willing to submit your ideas to scrutiny and admitting pros and cons of them.

I get the thought (not the reality, IMO) that he's not ready yet...that the UBI at $12,000/month is to high (IMO), and that at times he's spitballin (in an honest manner) toward solutions, but he's the best candidate, by a considerable margin, out there (obviously IMO).

Edited February 5, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

54 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

the UBI at $12,000/month is to high (IMO),

It’s at least an order of magnitude too high, in fact  

$1,200/mo, not $12K

[J.C.MacSwell]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s at least an order of magnitude too high, in fact  

$1,200/mo, not $12K

My bad, but you have a (much smaller) typo as well.

$1,000/month. 12K/year. 

[iNow]

Lol. Skitts law strikes again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

[CharonY]

Well that is the thing, Yang has some disconnected ideas on this matter and after what to me looks like a superficial read on the matter. That does annoy me perhaps because it reminds me of student reports. I have read a paragraph and am going to expound my thoughts on that matter on several pages. I would have preferred either acknowledging the matter and say that it requires some work, rather than throwing out ideas and pretend that they are well informed. I rather have a leader acknowledging that they need to read up in things rather than pretend to have solution. 

You see, to me the passage reads like pure narrative (link tuition to expected return and all will be well) does not only have no actual policy ideas, but is a horrible talking point which misses the purposes of higher education entirely.

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 hours ago, CharonY said:

Well that is the thing, Yang has some disconnected ideas on this matter and after what to me looks like a superficial read on the matter. That does annoy me perhaps because it reminds me of student reports. I have read a paragraph and am going to expound my thoughts on that matter on several pages. I would have preferred either acknowledging the matter and say that it requires some work, rather than throwing out ideas and pretend that they are well informed. I rather have a leader acknowledging that they need to read up in things rather than pretend to have solution. 

You see, to me the passage reads like pure narrative (link tuition to expected return and all will be well) does not only have no actual policy ideas, but is a horrible talking point which misses the purposes of higher education entirely.

Where did he say that?

And are you suggesting the purposes of higher education, especially with regard to government funding, don't include preparing for careers?

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

don't include preparing for careers?

No, I am saying it is not the sole focus (as it is in Yang's outline), and especially not focused on later income returns. Otherwise unis would end up being law, medical and engineering schools. Moreover, it would kill the research enterprise as the returns in academic research jobs are low.

Quote

Where did he say that?

Throughout his policy proposal. As I said, he is not coherent enough to make a specific case, but the fact that he wants to monitor debt in relation to future salaries, limit tuition to wage growth, wants uni presidents to talk to students regarding their careers, heavily implies that he sees a link between wages and expected return relative to tuition. What he neglect (except the administrative part) are the actual mechanisms of tuition cost (I have mentioned them in a different thread). 

The only thing to be control cost is for unis to slash services, and replace faculty with sessionals (which is already happening). Administration has potential for more efficiencies but alone would not drive down tuition cost to the required levels. And as I said if future salaries are to balance it out (rather than actually having a proper vision for investing into education) then we we will go away from broad integrative education to extended job training (i.e. where the private sector offloads training cost to public education centers, a trend started sometime in the 60s). Perhaps I am being unfair, but often the private sector is a bit myopic when it looks at things related to public goods (if all you got is a hammer and all that).

[CharonY]

I should also noted that in contrast to some other plans to making college debt free (e.g. Warren, Sanders, Clinton), there is not provision for that specifically. The goal seems to lower tuition a bit or at least couple it to wage development (somehow) and check that folks make the money back eventually.

However, he also has a loan forgiveness plan where debts will be bought by feds and after 10 years of payment (10% of the salary) it would be eventually forgiven (and other provisions that would be easier to forgive debt). It is not certain what the net cost would be in comparison to, say Warren's debt forgiveness plan. However it seems to have caught less media attention (positive or negative). It is similar to plans proposed by Trump, but with different thresholds and will be a higher burden to lower income folks (who struggle most with student loans).

Personally I do think that addressing student loan is too late, it should not come to that in the first place. It seems to me that North Americans (I am including Canadians here) seem to be so used to high education cost that only few consider alternatives "normal". 

 

[iNow]

On 2/4/2020 at 6:41 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

Yang looks to evaluate the problem. He doesn't expect or want you to fall in line, never mind berate your ideas if they don't align. 

Think he has any chance of winning the NYC mayors race he’s joined?

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

Think he has any chance of winning the NYC mayors race he’s joined?

He's the favourite. God knows they need him. Seems many in the polls do also.