The Wright brothers’ patent: Plane stabilized in roll by a pendulum. It seems impossible.

[iNow]

Bye

21 minutes ago, simplex said:

I am the victim of an idiot.

 

You really shouldn’t talk about yourself that way. It’s unhealthy 

[Janus]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

I don't know if we have any pilots involved in this discussion.

 

Not presently a pilot, but I did learn to fly quite a while back.

There is a simple instrument that is basically a small ball in a curved glass tube:

It is the Slip/Skid indicator.  It essentially helps in maintaining a coordinated turn.   The idea is to keep the ball between the lines by applying rudder.  If the ball move to the right, you apply right rudder and the if it moves to the left, you apply left Rudder.  The Old saying that goes with this is "step on the ball".

[simplex]

That is a Turn and slip indicator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator). It works using gyroscopes. It has nothing to do with the pendulum of the Wright brothers.

[Janus]

11 hours ago, simplex said:

That is a Turn and slip indicator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator). It works using gyroscopes. It has nothing to do with the pendulum of the Wright brothers.

The turn indicator, which is usually located just above the slip indicator, is driven by a gyroscope. But the device shown in the image I provided is just a ball in a glass tube, and does not depend on a gyroscope. 

[simplex]

"The turn and slip indicator can be referred to as the turn and bank indicator, although the instrument does not respond directly to bank angle." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator)

If the plane takes a turn in a coordinated way the bubble of air will rest in the middle of the tube regardless the bank angle. A pendulum hanging from the ceiling of the plane will do the same thing. It will point toward the floor of the airplane (the rod stays perpendicular to the longitudinal and transverse axes of the airplane) no matter of the roll angle, assuming the centripetal acceleration during the turn remains constant. However, neither the bubble nor the pendulum can say anything about the bank angle and in consequence they can not be used as governors which correct the unwanted roll.

In the case of the Wright brothers, they correct the roll with a pendulum!

The turn and slip indicator is one more piece of experimental evidence that a pendulum or a bubble can not be used for measuring the bank angle of an airplane.

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, simplex said:

"The turn and slip indicator can be referred to as the turn and bank indicator, although the instrument does not respond directly to bank angle." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator)

If the plane takes a turn in a coordinated way the bubble of air will rest in the middle of the tube regardless the bank angle. A pendulum hanging from the ceiling of the plane will do the same thing. It will point toward the floor of the airplane (the rod stays perpendicular to the longitudinal and transverse axes of the airplane) no matter of the roll angle, assuming the centripetal acceleration during the turn remains constant. However, neither the bubble nor the pendulum can say anything about the bank angle and in consequence they can not be used as governors which correct the unwanted roll.

where in the patent is a pendulum hanging from the ceiling described?

 

 

[simplex]

I am not talking with idiots. I do not answer stupid questions.

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, simplex said:

I am not talking with idiots. I do not answer stupid questions.

So, you can’t answer the question about where in the patent it says that and are choosing instead to lash out like an indignant child. Got it. 

[simplex]

You are a big idiot.

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, simplex said:

You are a big idiot.

!

Moderator Note

And you're now free to post elsewhere. We forgive a LOT, but willful ignorance of the rules on civility makes you a hindrance to discussing science. We don't want to keep you from finding your new forum, and wish you the very best of luck in all you do.

 

[Strange]

After the thread was closed, someone suggested this discussion on StackExchange, if anyone is interested: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/33105/can-a-pendulum-stabilizer-for-airplanes-really-work?rq=1 

Some of the same points there as made here:

Quote

 As far as the roll axis is concerned, a pendulum gives the same information as does a slip-skid ball (though a pendulum is less damped and more prone to unwanted oscillations). 

And, perhaps not surprisingly, our dear departed member has the last word