Covid-19 vaccines thread

[Duda Jarek]

UK starts mass vaccination: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55218679

[MigL]

In the news today...
Even though Canada hasn't approved the Pfizer vaccine yet, an initial shipment of a quarter million doses is on its way and should be ready for distribution within a week or two.

[MigL]

Spoke too soon ...
Canada has approved the Pfizer/BNT vaccine for use.

Health Canada approves Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine (msn.com)

I see light at the end of the tunnel.

[iNow]

No, MigL!!! Don't go into the light... the vaccine is all about trying to avoid that! 

[MigL]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

No, MigL!!! Don't go into the light

That's only if you are comatose, INow.
I think I'm still fairly conscious ... sometimes.

[CharonY]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Spoke too soon ...
Canada has approved the Pfizer/BNT vaccine for use.

Health Canada approves Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine (msn.com)

I see light at the end of the tunnel.

Hopefully folks realize that they still need to socially distance after getting the vaccine. Even if they do not get seriously sick anymore, they might still transmit the virus.

[Area54]

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Hopefully folks realize that they still need to socially distance after getting the vaccine. Even if they do not get seriously sick anymore, they might still transmit the virus.

My suspicion is that after some nine months of covid avoidance measures a significant proportion of the population will feel that the mere existence of a vaccine somehow means it's OK to relax. It won't register that it will be well through next year before the majority of people have received a vaccine. As a consequence I fear that we could see third and fourth waves occurring. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think humans have got a good track record for long term, sustained, widespread rational behaviour.

On the plus side, ignoring Covid completely, we now know the names of 18 astronauts destined to travel to the moon. That's something nice to think about.

[CharonY]

52 minutes ago, Area54 said:

My suspicion is that after some nine months of covid avoidance measures a significant proportion of the population will feel that the mere existence of a vaccine somehow means it's OK to relax. It won't register that it will be well through next year before the majority of people have received a vaccine. As a consequence I fear that we could see third and fourth waves occurring. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think humans have got a good track record for long term, sustained, widespread rational behaviour.

To be fair, some did a much better jobs than others, so if with the right message and mechanisms in place it is at least possible to adjust behaviour. We have learned a lot of lessons what does not work (e.g. just appealing to self-responsibility).

[MigL]

20 hours ago, Area54 said:

we now know the names of 18 astronauts destined to travel to the moon

Damn …
I'm not on the list.

[MigL]

apparently Pfizer vaccines are already being transported to various locations. Canada's are coming from the production site in Puurs, Belgium.
I assume we're not getting any from Pfizer's Kalamazoo site, as D Trump has  expressed a desire to have Americans inoculated first.

Shipments are by plane ( underfloor cargo hold ), in dry ice filled containers, as the mRNA is fragile, and degrades quickly with elevated temps.
Special approval has been granted by the FAA for carrying 5 times the allowed amount of dry ice; usually 3000 lbs, now 15000lbs.
The sublimating dry ice is allowed to vent to atmosphere, and no special precautions are being taken for pilots, other than warnings about CO2 exposure.
Production, and now shipping, has been ongoing even as the vaccine was waiting for testing/approval, so as to have significant quantities available on go ahead.

Edited December 11, 2020 by MigL

[CharonY]

45 minutes ago, MigL said:

apparently Pfizer vaccines are already being transported to various locations. Canada's are coming from the production site in Puurs, Belgium.
I assume we're not getting any from Pfizer's Kalamazoo site, as D Trump has  expressed a desire to have Americans inoculated first.

Shipments are by plane ( underfloor cargo hold ), in dry ice filled containers, as the mRNA is fragile, and degrades quickly with elevated temps.
Special approval has been granted by the FAA for carrying 5 times the allowed amount of dry ice; usually 3000 lbs, now 15000lbs.
The sublimating dry ice is allowed to vent to atmosphere, and no special precautions are being taken for pilots, other than warnings about CO2 exposure.
Production, and now shipping, has been ongoing even as the vaccine was waiting for testing/approval, so as to have significant quantities available on go ahead.

Yes a number of facilities with -80C freezers (including universities) are preparing to receive and store shipments.

[studiot]

Two interesting devlopments today.

 

1)  Trials of a combination/cocktail of  the Astra - Zeneca (Oxford) and Russian (Sputnik) vaccines are to be held.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55273907

 

2) Progress on the gnetic basis for severity of covid infections.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54832563

 

Finally an interesting story of a Cholera vaccine pioneer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-55050012

[Danijel Gorupec]

I still didn't read anywhere if we have an estimation how long the vaccine protection might last(*). Do you know?

More generally, is it at all possible that a vaccine protection lasts longer than the protection obtained after getting over an actual illness?

Finally, the controversial question, do manufacturers have a technology to program vaccine protection time? You know, like when you buy an iPhone and then it slows down once it suits the manufacturer.

 

(* It does happen to me that sometimes I expect some information to have high visibility, but newspapers do not show much interest in it.)

[Area54]

6 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

I still didn't read anywhere if we have an estimation how long the vaccine protection might last(*). Do you know?

No one knows. This will only emerge as those who have been vaccinated, either in the trials or in vaccination programs, begin to succumb to covid in the future. I have yet to see a genuine expert, in any country, offer a speculation - only  various hopes.

12 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

More generally, is it at all possible that a vaccine protection lasts longer than the protection obtained after getting over an actual illness?

If I have properly understood some of the reports I've seen then this is definitely a possibility and is actively hoped for.

 

13 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

Finally, the controversial question, do manufacturers have a technology to program vaccine protection time?

At the risk of giving offence I wouldn't call it controversial, just silly.

[Danijel Gorupec]

2 hours ago, Area54 said:

If I have properly understood some of the reports I've seen then this is definitely a possibility and is actively hoped for.

Thanks.... Can you hint a possible mechanism? Just to get an idea. I understand a vaccine shot can protect from multiple strains of viruses, but I guess this is not the case with the corona vaccine.

[Area54]

3 hours ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

Thanks.... Can you hint a possible mechanism?

Unfotunately not. My primary source for news is the BBC, both broadcast and online. The suggestion that the vaccine might give longer protection than infection with the virus was made on a few occassions by experts, and/or informed reporters. I just filed the comments in my mind as something to keep an eye on as more data became available. There was no concrete mention of a mechanism.

[studiot]

It is known that the covid virus affects people in a variety of ways and to a large range of severity. Experts are now beginning to uncover the genetics behind these differences.

So one might reasonably expect there to be a corresponding range of 'protection'  life given by the vaccine.

The vaccines themselves (ther are several types) work in different ways as well.

The Pfizer vaccine is basically dead virus.

The Asta-Zeneca vaccine is basically a different virus with bits from covid tacked on.

The reason for the original lower effectiveness of the Asta vaccine is thought to be because the first dose, if too stron, prepares to body to reject the carrier virus and never gets round to responding to the added covid.

Edited December 12, 2020 by studiot

[MigL]

Have any of our elderly  UK members been vaccinated ?
If not could you inform us when you do; we have questions.

I don't imagine I'm on any short list to receive the vaccine in Canada, so It'll probably be the summer before I get vaccinated.
( no overseas vacation again, this coming year )

[CharonY]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, Danijel Gorupec said:

Thanks.... Can you hint a possible mechanism? Just to get an idea. I understand a vaccine shot can protect from multiple strains of viruses, but I guess this is not the case with the corona vaccine.

The way your immune system memorizes an antigen happens on several levels and elements like strength and frequency of exposure play a role. However, there are also certain genetic factors (i.e. what types of antibodies you are actually producing) that might play a role as well as your overall status when being infected and/or receiving the vaccine. In other words, there is nothing fundamental in the mechanism of vaccination vs disease exposure that would allow a priori assumptions about length of protection other than empirical evidence. I.e. vaccines are applied under controlled conditions and based on trial (and further observation after release) we can provide rough answers about how long it will protect (and since the COVID-19 vaccine is so fresh, the maximum time we know anything about is the length of the trials at max). 

Exposure to a disease is undefined, however. You do not know the dose you have been exposed to or for how long or even when and how many times. So unless the disease is known to elicit a very strong memory effect (again, something we don't know enough about COVID-19) we cannot do any predictions. You have to remember, for most diseases and vaccinations we have decades of data. Here, we have less than a year's worth.

20 hours ago, studiot said:

The Pfizer vaccine is basically dead virus.

Actually it is part of a new generation of vaccines which so far were not terribly effective. Instead of having an inactivated (or attenuated) virus, the BioNTech (as well as the Moderna) system uses just a bit of the genetic material (bits of mRNA coding for the spike protein of the virus). The idea is to introduce this RNA into our cells, they will produce and present the antigen for our immune system to recognize (i.e. it is a bit of a shortcut to for a process that is termed antigen processing and presentation). The big issue is that RNA is very unstable and is often degraded before delivered to our cells and therefore immunogenicity was very low. This is why folks think that the efficacy of the current mRNA vaccine is astounding. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 12/10/2020 at 5:24 PM, MigL said:

Damn …
I'm not on the list.

I'm neither denying or confirming that I am on the list at this time.

Darn, looks like they are all Americans...I might as well admit I'm not on it.

On 12/11/2020 at 1:27 PM, studiot said:

Finally an interesting story of a Cholera vaccine pioneer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-55050012

Great article. I had never heard of him.

[studiot]

On 12/13/2020 at 12:23 AM, MigL said:

Have any of our elderly  UK members been vaccinated ?
If not could you inform us when you do; we have questions.

I don't imagine I'm on any short list to receive the vaccine in Canada, so It'll probably be the summer before I get vaccinated.
( no overseas vacation again, this coming year )

Vaccination hasn't reached us lowly peasants yet, so this is the best I can do.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55315802

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by studiot

[CharonY]

So far there have been two cases of anaphylactoid reactions (i.e. similar display as anaphylaxis, but different mechanism) from which they have recovered. So folks with severe allergies are asked to discuss risks with their healthcare provider.

 

[studiot]

11 minutes ago, CharonY said:

So far there have been two cases of anaphylactoid reactions (i.e. similar display as anaphylaxis, but different mechanism) from which they have recovered. So folks with severe allergies are asked to discuss risks with their healthcare provider.

 

 

There have been more than 2 in the UK alone, and these were for the dose 1 stage only as no dose 2 stages doses have yet been dispensed.

However the incidence  and range of reaction is incredibly low compared to that of the normal annual flu vaccination.

I can't speak for anywhere else  as I have no information there.

Possibly those in Scotland were not as severe, certainly no one has failed to recover from them.

 

 

[CharonY]

25 minutes ago, studiot said:

 

There have been more than 2 in the UK alone, and these were for the dose 1 stage only as no dose 2 stages doses have yet been dispensed.

However the incidence  and range of reaction is incredibly low compared to that of the normal annual flu vaccination.

I can't speak for anywhere else  as I have no information there.

Possibly those in Scotland were not as severe, certainly no one has failed to recover from them.

 

 

Then my info is outdated, I only have heard of two more serious UK cases (but it was a few days back and I have not kept a close eye on it). But as you said, they all recovered. I am not sure about the flu vaccination, especially as not that many have been vaccinated yet.

Aside from the mRNA the the ingredients are:

Lipids (including ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol)

And finally some salts and sugars:

Potassium chloride
Monobasic potassium phosphate
Sodium chloride
Dibasic sodium phosphate dehydrate
Sucrose

 

In addition, the FDA has now released a report one the Moderna vaccine (which is also RNA-based) and is expected to be approved soon under emergency rules.

[studiot]

10 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Then my info is outdated, I only have heard of two more serious UK cases (but it was a few days back and I have not kept a close eye on it). But as you said, they all recovered. I am not sure about the flu vaccination, especially as not that many have been vaccinated yet.

Flu vaccination in th UK starts in September and only the stragglers (like me) are left until December.
I got mine in early this year at the end of November.

I never notice any change after the vaccination , but my wife always feels 'off colour' for a few days and needs at least some paracetamol.

We both still do it though since neither of us has had the infection for years.

 

I'm equally sure it would be wrong to pretend that there will not be a range of reactions to the covid vaccine and that many will notice some mild  effects.

Absolutely sure this this far outweighed by the benfits like a ton to an ounce.

 

As to whether the Pfizer vaccine is dead virus or fragments of virus is a bit of a pointless argument.

If I gut and fillet a dead fish for the table, it is still a dead fish (but with bits missing).
If I hold a hog roast the thing turing on the spit over the firepit in the garden is still a dead pig (but with bits missing).

But if I put a  loin joint of pork in the oven, that is fragment of pig.

I understand the difference between the Pfizer and Oxford vaccines are the difference between my fish or hog roast and sticking the legs off a pig onto a turkey.