Comparing Corona Virus Success Stories with Abysmal Failures

[CharonY]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

No worries on the fatigue. I'm feeling it, too. Tying this back to the thread, it sure looks like my 4 year old who's too young for any vaccine shots has covid now and none of us slept last night. It's going to be an interesting holiday weekend for us all. 

Oh gosh, if we had a child we would be done for. It is hard enough to keep the students safe (in the lab) and instead of winding down our COVID-19 work (as funding agencies were suggesting) things are picking up (been writing reports until 4AM and decided to just continue). I hope you all stay healthy!

[zapatos]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

it sure looks like my 4 year old who's too young for any vaccine shots has covid now

Sorry to hear that. Hope it doesn't drag out too long for your family. 

Did it likely come from daycare?

[CharonY]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I read a book in 2020 on pandemics that was written several years prior to COVID. In it they described different pandemics and the reaction to them. Governments tried to enforce lockdowns. Foreigners were blamed. Businesses minimized the impact so as to not lose revenue. Individuals complained about loss of freedoms and government overreach. You could easily have changed the name of the pandemic described in the book with COVID-19 and no one would have noticed.

Absolutely, my wife has used some old headlines as well as some snippets of discussions and articles from the 1918 pandemic in her classes. And only after discussion she revealed from when these articles where from. The fun bit is that many students picked up on the old arguments (e.g. vaccine safety, or the idea of naturally boosting your immune system) while thinking that these are new ideas based on latest science, showing the circular nature on how we are dealing with outbreaks.

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's almost as if the flood of information to which we're exposed has reduced our experience of "object permanence" and it just disappears when it's no longer in front of us. 

Yes that's how I feel. Sometimes it goes so fast, I hardly trust my own memories. I now slowly understand why some older folks kept archives of newspapers at home...

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Did it likely come from daycare?

Pre-K in an elementary school that has Prek through 6th grade... within a district whose board VERY nearly voted last night to end the mask mandate (but thankfully extended it for at least 3 more weeks), but we may never know the actual source.  Contract tracing is illegal in my state, along with vaccine mandates.

My 8 year old is in that same school, but has had 2 vaccine shots (not yet eligible for booster, sadly) so time will tell.

18 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I now slowly understand why some older folks kept archives of newspapers at home...

Get off my lawn!!   

[zapatos]

13 minutes ago, iNow said:

Contract tracing is illegal in my state...

Sounds like legislators should be illegal in your state.

[iNow]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Sounds like legislators should be illegal in your state.

Indeed. The president of our state senate, in fact, is right now pushing legislation to jail teachers who happen to have a copy of one or two specific books in the library... saying teachers have a "sinister agenda" all because 2 or 3 books happen to be on the shelves in 1 or 2 libraries on topics harsh views of slave life and LQBTQ self-acceptance, but are instead being boogeyman'd with the base as "attempts to normalize sexual deviance, pedophilia, and incest."

Lots of forward thinking stuff happening where I live, all while pig farms and agri-corporations keep dumping trash and chemicals into our waterways.

Sorry... still off topic, but things aren't exactly awesome with our GOP leadership right now.

[beecee]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

It's almost as if the flood of information to which we're exposed has reduced our experience of "object permanence" and it just disappears when it's no longer in front of us. 

No worries on the fatigue. I'm feeling it, too. Tying this back to the thread, it sure looks like my 4 year old who's too young for any vaccine shots has covid now and none of us slept last night. It's going to be an interesting holiday weekend for us all. 

Cheers. 

Shit, not good...hope all turns out OK for your young one. I was diagnosed positive on the 6th and the worst symptom was a whoozy head, similar to waking up after a heavy night on the piss. I am now out of isolation and suffering no known after effects. Thankfully my wife ( who has a few underlying conditions) appears to have escaped it...so far! We did isolate completely, ( me locked in the rear of our house and my man cave) separate bathrooms, both wearing masks inside and outside, as much as possible, me living on take-a-way and not using the kitchen  and imo the most imporatnt of all, rest!!!!

 

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

Shit, not good...hope all turns out OK for your young one. I was diagnosed positive on the 6th and the worst symptom was a whoozy head, similar to waking up after a heavy night on the piss. I am now out of isolation and suffering no known after effects. Thankfully my wife ( who has a few underlying conditions) appears to have escaped it...so far! We did isolate completely, ( me locked in the rear of our house and my man cave) separate bathrooms, both wearing masks inside and outside, as much as possible, me living on take-a-way and not using the kitchen  and imo the most imporatnt of all, rest!!!!

 

If you don't mind me asking, were you vaccinated and boosted? Just wondering about some first-person stories as I've only known a couple people to get COVID. 

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

If you don't mind me asking, were you vaccinated and boosted? Just wondering about some first-person stories as I've only known a couple people to get COVID. 

3 distinct households / friends down the street from me have it right now. All were vaxxed and boosted 

[beecee]

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

If you don't mind me asking, were you vaccinated and boosted? Just wondering about some first-person stories as I've only known a couple people to get COVID. 

Yep, two astrazeneca and Moderna booster shot. My mild short lived symptoms, were imo because of having had the booster. 

[zapatos]

My niece and her whole family got it, as well as my son's FIL. All were also vaccinated and boosted. But I guess I also don't know that many people who have not been vaccinated. Not the type of people I tend to be around a lot.

 

[iNow]

The difference is in intensity, not so much likelihood of infection. Boosted? You suffer a strong cold / flu and generally feeling like total crap for a few days. Unvaxxed? You likely will need ventilators and fluids to avoid death… IF there’s room in the local hospital to accept you. 

[CharonY]

48 minutes ago, iNow said:

The difference is in intensity, not so much likelihood of infection. Boosted? You suffer a strong cold / flu and generally feeling like total crap for a few days. Unvaxxed? You likely will need ventilators and fluids to avoid death… IF there’s room in the local hospital to accept you. 

The latter part is quite critical and age is also an issue. A parent (~80s) of a friend died shortly before vaccines became available. While the infection was diagnosed, the complications set in so fast that they died before much could be done. Another elderly relative of a colleague was fully vaccinated but got infected. Detoriation was much slower but the hospital ran out of ventilators...

Looking at infection numbers we are measuring (and estimating the part that we are not measuring), I get chills (hopefully just a psychological reaction) just thinking what would have happened if Omicron hit us without vaccines.

[MigL]

I'm either doing a terrible job of explaining myself, or some of you are being willfully obtuse.

I specifically said this was happening in Canada.

12 hours ago, iNow said:

Except even private insurers here in the US are charging more / covering less for unvaccinated folks, both in premiums and in rejected claims for reimbursement.

Canada has Universal Health care, the US does not.
Nor was there any questioning of vaccines in the 60s and 70s; I recall being vaccinated at school in the early 70s.
Without parental approval, just notification, and here is also a mark on my left shoulder from vaccination in Italy in the 60s.

Also, charonY, this is not a fine for non-compliance.
It is an added fee, to be able to use what is supposed to be a Universal Health Care system, and there happen to be rules about imposing such 'fees' that affect federal transfer payments for health care. Then again, this is quebec, who regularlu flout federal rules, and even use the 'notwithstanding' clause in our Charter to get around those rules.

This is also not related to tobacco or alcohol taxes, as those are levied on use, and not on failiure to protect oneself against lung cancer or alcoholism.
The only one that comes close is fines for seatbelt non-use, but  I am not against fines for not complying with vaccination orders; I am against ruining our universal health care, because some politicians, without the balls to do the right thing, are willing to ruin a good thing like our health care, in their zeal.

Another that shares my opinion 

Harry Rakowski: If we tax the unvaccinated, what about the unhealthy who are also at higher risk of severe COVID-19? (msn.com)

And the last page or soof this thread, dealing with the effects of the virus and/or the vaccines should not be in this thread.
This is specifically about Government ( and not just American or British ) response to the pandemic.

If my ideas still areen't clear, for whatever reason, I apologise.
You guys carry on ...

Edited January 14, 2022 by MigL

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nor was there any questioning of vaccines in the 60s and 70s;

We can disagree about how much questioning there was, but cannot agree there was none.

Safe drivers without vehicle accidents get better insurance rates. Medical insurance is similar. Consciously choosing behaviors like smoking or taking horse dewormer or avoiding vaccines is unsafe and it should be unsurprising that there are negative consequences for making such choices. 

[CharonY]

Just now, MigL said:

Also, charonY, this is not a fine for non-compliance.
It is an added fee, to be able to use what is supposed to be a Universal Health Care system, and there happen to be rules about imposing such 'fees' that affect federal transfer payments for health care. Then again, this is quebec, who regularlu flout federal rules, and even use the 'notwithstanding' clause in our Charter to get around those rules.

Perhaps you could explain the difference a bit better. From the report it seems that unvaccinated folks would suffer a financial penalty and in various reports they were called "fine", "tax", "fee" or simply "penalty". So I am not entirely sure why you think that it is not a fine.

Other countries are imposing penalties, too and, as mentioned it has happened in the past. I kind of fail to see a difference that you seem to see in what Quebec is doing, so perhaps you could elaborate the issue a bit. I have not seen details on the mechanism of the penalty so I am hazy how it is supposed to impact health care system. 

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

And the last page or so, dealing with the effects of the virus and/or the vaccines should not be in this thread.
This is specifically about Government ( and not just American or British ) response to the pandemic.

That's fair, but I think we have drifted quite a bit in various direction in the rather lengthy thread, since we are back on track, I suppose the intermission won't hurt too much  

[TheVat]

If I'm following MigL on this, he seems to say that if there is a public safety matter, the government shouldn't mess around and should instead just mandate vaccines.  As with seatbelts, wearing shoes in public indoor places (iirc, this was because of hookworms originally), polio, etc.

I would agree.  With charging added fees, you might discourage someone going in for some important treatment, and it would somewhat violate the spirit of universal healthcare.  In essence, it is punishing people for being gullible with regard to social media conspiracy theorists.  Maybe better to penalize them for breaking the law up front - that's often more persuasive.  

 

[CharonY]

51 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nor was there any questioning of vaccines in the 60s and 70s; I recall being vaccinated at school in the early 70s.
Without parental approval, just notification, and here is also a mark on my left shoulder from vaccination in Italy in the 60s.

I am not entirely sure what relevance that has. If we focus on Canada, in the smallpox epidemic in Montreal (1880s) resulted in mandatory vaccination efforts which were almost immediately met with riots. In response to the Vaccination Act passed shortly after the epidemic. Various anti-vaccination groups formed in response and among them the Anti-Vaccination League of Canada. Throughout the early 1900s lengthy back-and-forth between medical boards and the anti vaccination group(s) followed, with many arguments that we see today (i.e. harm of vaccines, limits of personal freedom etc.). There was far more dismissal of layperson at the time with call for trust in the medical profession, but otherwise, well much of it could be facebook posts. Incidentally there were also hiccups in vaccine rollout and so on. 

Based from these movement, numerous successor groups formed, and persisted through postwar times and after effective end of smallpox in 1979 they focused on pertussis vaccines. Some of their "successes" include the amendment of to an 80s act which barred children from folks if they were unvaccinated to allow exemptions based on conscience, on top of religious exemptions.

There were also other, international groups throughout starting from the beginning of mass vaccinations and having various impact on legislature. I.e. there were many, many organized anti-vaccination efforts in Canada, and chances are that you simply have not followed those discussions. Probably in part because you were young and not directly exposed to anti-vaxxers. Nowadays folks overshare and they seem to be everywhere as a result.

16 minutes ago, TheVat said:

If I'm following MigL on this, he seems to say that if there is a public safety matter, the government shouldn't mess around and should instead just mandate vaccines.  As with seatbelts, wearing shoes in public indoor places (iirc, this was because of hookworms originally), polio, etc.

To me it seems that is what Quebec is doing. They mandate the vaccine and if you don't comply (and have no exemption) you'll be fined. I am not sure what the alternative is beside jailing or forcibly injecting, both of which would probably even more problematic (I mean, some have mentioned using modified blowdarts...).

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

This is specifically about Government ( and not just American or British ) response to the pandemic.

 

No, this is about success stories and failures. The OP did not limit the discussion to government responses. 

[MigL]

On 3/20/2020 at 10:50 PM, Alex_Krycek said:

Note:  I'm not sure if this thread belongs in Politics or as part of another existing thread

It might be interesting to discuss the success stories vs the failures so far in the COVID-19 pandemic.  My definition of "success" is based on the number of deaths compared to the number of confirmed cases. 

Success Stories:

• Japan
• Singapore
• Taiwan
• Hong Kong
• South Korea

Not so Successful:

Pretty much every other country.

I suggest you re-read the OP.
Pay particular attention to the highlighted parts.

 

My opinion on the matter can perhaps, be better expressed by a quote from the original link I provided previously

"The problem is, no universal public health-care system is likely to survive the adoption of blameworthiness as a triage principle. The vast majority of us who wind up in the hospital, below a certain age at least, will likely regret having done something, or not having done the opposite, in order to avoid that outcome. There are people who think downhill skiing and cycling to work are so dangerous that they ought to come with special health-care premiums. We do not want those people influencing health-care policy. And it’s worth noting how quickly Legault’s logic could lead to denying health care outright to the reckless, unwise and unvaccinated."

From

Chris Selley: Quebec's anti-vax tax could lead us to some very dark places (msn.com)

 

 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

I suggest you re-read the OP.
Pay particular attention to the highlighted parts.

Still don't see anything saying this is limited to government responses. Would you mind explicitly showing me the words that say it is limited in that way, instead of making this some sort of reading test?

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I suggest you re-read the OP.
Pay particular attention to the highlighted parts.

Actually, up on re-reading OP there non-government factor such as population compliance has been mentioned. And I believe I vaguely remember a short discussion in this thread regarding behavioural norms (though I might be confusing it with something else). Nonetheless given the scope of OP I think a broader discussion makes a lot of sense. After all, a great governmental plan is pretty much meaningless if the population does not follow it.

[MigL]

Not much of a 'reading test'.
It specifically mentions country level response, not individual/personal level.
And lists several countries ( Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea ) with successful outcomes, and other 'countries' without.

Did you, or did your Government, influence the American response to the pandemic ?

[iNow]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Did you, or did your Government, influence the American response to the pandemic ?

Yes

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Not much of a 'reading test'.
It specifically mentions country level response, not individual/personal level.
And lists several countries ( Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea ) with successful outcomes, and other 'countries' without.

Did you, or did your Government, influence the American response to the pandemic ?

One of the reasons why Japan had better outcomes despite lack of restrictions was that folks for example wore masks without mandate. Meanwhile, in Canada you see uptick in signal whenever such mandates are lifted. Behavioural responses are critical in a pandemic.