Physics engine for proof of concept

[DandelionTheory]

If I plug values into a physics engine, would that be enough of a proof of concept?

https://forum.unity.com/threads/defying-gravity.858343/

I made something in the unity3D physics engine that shifts it's center of gravity in the positive Y axis at around 600 force units.

It would require downloading the engine (version 4.7) and the project file from the forum I posted to view on your computer, of which is asking alot. Its the best I got, I hope it's enough.

-DandelionTheory

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

If I plug values into a physics engine, would that be enough of a proof of concept?

https://forum.unity.com/threads/defying-gravity.858343/

I made something in the unity3D physics engine that shifts it's center of gravity in the positive Y axis at around 600 force units.

It would require downloading the engine (version 4.7) and the project file from the forum I posted to view on your computer, of which is asking alot. Its the best I got, I hope it's enough.

-DandelionTheory

You call it a "wobbler" in that other thread. Does that imply it moves backwards and forwards? Or can it make continuous linear movement?

[Ghideon]

18 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

I made something in the unity3D physics engine that shifts it's center of gravity in the positive Y axis at around 600 force units.

Simulations of correctly modelled systems can provide valuable insight into the systems behaviour. That said, what does "defying-gravity" mean? If it does not adhere to the rules of physics then it's just a test that shows that the unity3D software and/or the model is not correct. 

 

[DandelionTheory]

23 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Simulations of correctly modelled systems can provide valuable insight into the systems behaviour. That said, what does "defying-gravity" mean? If it does not adhere to the rules of physics then it's just a test that shows that the unity3D software and/or the model is not correct. 

 

The engine applies constant gravity to all rigid bodies and an opposing force is applied to the structure at certain conditions. It's in the script attached to the "Pin" object (center of gravity).

What I mean by "defying gravity" is, the center of mass has enough momentum to counter the constant acceleration of gravity.

 

40 minutes ago, Strange said:

You call it a "wobbler" in that other thread. Does that imply it moves backwards and forwards? Or can it make continuous linear movement?

Yes it moves backwards and forwards with less than 570 force units, but with more than 575 force units it gains momentum in the Positive Y direction. The name is supposed to be satire.

i messed up, i see a divide, false alarm

Edited April 1, 2020 by DandelionTheory

[DandelionTheory]

it requires a 3rd weight

 

[DandelionTheory]

i added a third weight to the new example, the "wobbler" apparently throws itself in the positive Y direction after about 45 seconds into the engine initiation

 

timestep is 0.0005 

Unity Uindow > Edit > Project Settings > Time > change the "Fixed Timestep" variable to 0.0005.

you can turn the gravity constant off with

Unity Uindow > Edit > Project Settings > Physics > change the gravity Y var to 0

https://forum.unity.com/threads/defying-gravity.858343/

[Ghideon]

27 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

i added a third weight to the new example, the "wobbler" apparently throws itself in the positive Y direction after about 45 seconds into the engine initiation

Hard to tell with the limited information available, I guess there are some options:
-You found a bug in the software
-You try to model something outside the specifications of unity3D resulting in unphysical behaviour
-unity3D is intended to allow unphysical models resulting in unphysical results
-I misinterpret what you try to achieve or to show (You could try posting more details here on this forum. I can't download and install a 3d engine at this time)
 

[pzkpfw]

2 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

it requires a 3rd weight

 

And some magic, you forgot the magic.

[DandelionTheory]

2 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

And some magic, you forgot the magic.

i updated it again by going through the animation. if you have the time and resources please see the 3rd one. its a direct result of the effect in a physics engine.

[swansont]

On 4/1/2020 at 1:42 PM, DandelionTheory said:

 What I mean by "defying gravity" is, the center of mass has enough momentum to counter the constant acceleration of gravity.

Momentum doesn't "counter" gravity. The latter is a force, which gives rise to a change in momentum. The only context I can think of where this might make sense is escape velocity.

You need to provide more information. A screen shot of the system at the very least.

[DandelionTheory]

43 minutes ago, swansont said:

Momentum doesn't "counter" gravity. The latter is a force, which gives rise to a change in momentum. The only context I can think of where this might make sense is escape velocity.

You need to provide more information. A screen shot of the system at the very least.

i can screenshot the script which is in C# and has some game engine jargon in it. and describe the setup with a picture.

 

this is the script

 

in this setup the left and right weights are on top of each other to the left of the center pin. the "Top",  "Left" and "Right" weights rotate about the grey pin. the disconnect from the real world, the weights can pass through each other.

this is a like 30 timesteps in

-DT

Edited April 3, 2020 by DandelionTheory

[Ghideon]

1 hour ago, DandelionTheory said:

the disconnect from the real world, the weights can pass through each other.

Does that mean that this is not an attempt to model something "real", physically possible, scenario?

It is not clear what the speculation is. 

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Does that mean that this is not an attempt to model something "real", physically possible, scenario?

It is not clear what the speculation is. 

Magic is real, you muggle...

[Ghideon]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Magic is real, you muggle...

Since I have insight into what you mean but is completely incapable of using or understanding it I guess I must qualify as a squib.

But you also have a good point: If the 3D engine used by OP is intended for gaming, why shouldn't it be possible to use the engine to model a quidditch game for instance? An animation in a physics engine is not evidence of new physics.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

i can screenshot the script which is in C# and has some game engine jargon in it. and describe the setup with a picture.

 

this is the script

 

in this setup the left and right weights are on top of each other to the left of the center pin. the "Top",  "Left" and "Right" weights rotate about the grey pin. the disconnect from the real world, the weights can pass through each other.

there’s more than one grey pin in these drawings.
left and right are on top of each other? That’s less than intelligible.

I see two pins. Which one is the “center”?

One thing you could try is starting at the beginning, and disclosing all if the information, instead of jumping in at the middle and only explaining a third of what’s going on and assuming we know what you’re talking about.

 

 

Quote

this is a like 30 timesteps in

-DT

Now there’s a fourth ball. Where did it come from?
 

 

[DandelionTheory]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

 

 

 

Now there’s a fourth ball. Where did it come from?
 

 

the pin, "left", "right", and "top"

[swansont]

So the pin is a ball, and not a pin.

Do I really need to point out that nobody can read your mind?

[Strange]

4 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

the pin, "left", "right", and "top"

How about actually explaining, rather than making incomprehensibly cryptic responses.

[DandelionTheory]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

How about actually explaining, rather than making incomprehensibly cryptic responses.

You could download a well known physics engine and play the scene I put together, observe the script. It's too much to ask I guess. 

3 weights pivot a round pin. If force is oppositely applied to a pin and the center every time force is applied, the center of gravity will shift. I've tried to mess it up by not applying one weight/pin force, but the wobbly motion still throws the center out of it's circumference.

The script applies force in opposite directions. I don't know how else to get you to look.

[pzkpfw]

So what do you think you've designed?

If your machine were built and put out in space somewhere, do you think it would move off in some direction, self contained and expelling no mass?

[DandelionTheory]

39 minutes ago, pzkpfw said:

So what do you think you've designed?

If your machine were built and put out in space somewhere, do you think it would move off in some direction, self contained and expelling no mass?

Well I'm not assuming anything. That's why it's in a physics engine. There is no constant acceleration due to gravity, but the weights and pin have mass. 

I can change the magnitude of opposite forces acting, it moves with 1 unit of force and I can set up the scene in the physics engine if you do not know how. 

It has one script attached to the "Pin" gameobject. If I'm wrong, show me where. Because this game engine calculates net momentum based on the setup of opposite forces at certain points.

All acting forces are in the -Y and +Y direction simultaneously, based on their rotation and position about the pin.

Edited April 4, 2020 by DandelionTheory

[DandelionTheory]

 

18 hours ago, swansont said:

A screen shot of the system at the very least.

 

got an animation

 

May i have some credit now?

-DandielionTheory

Edited April 4, 2020 by DandelionTheory

[Ghideon]

You seem to claim something that is simply not logical or coherent.

The engine does not exactly model reality. Unrealistic and/or unphysical behaviour is problem in the software and the model. It does not tell anything new and/or unknown about physics.

Here is an example from the manual: (bold by me)

Quote

Enable Adaptive Force: The adaptive force affects the way forces are transmitted through a pile or stack of objects, to give more realistic behaviour. 

Source: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/class-PhysicsManager.html
 

The engine is not built to be 100% realistic*. You can have models that does not follow the laws of physics as a real physical object would. The ability to exploit that does not tell us something new about how physics works in the real world. 

 

46 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

May i have some credit now?

For scientific / physical discoveries? none, zero

(but some minor credits for getting me interested in Unity engine)

 

*) I down know of any engine being capable of modelling physics 100% correct. There are many reasons for wanting to model physics less realistically in a physics engine (OT for this thread).

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Ghideon
grammar and format

[DandelionTheory]

9 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

You seem to claim something that is simply not logical or coherent.

The engine does not exactly model reality. Unrealistic and/or unphysical behaviour is problem in the software and the model. It does not tell anything new and/or unknown about physics.

Here is an example from the manual: (bold by me)

Source: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/class-PhysicsManager.html
 

The engine is not built to be 100% realistic*. You can have models that does not follow the laws of physics as a real physical object would. The ability to exploit that does not tell us something new about how physics works in the real world. 

 

For scientific / physical discoveries? none, zero

(but some minor credits for getting me interested in Unity engine)

 

*) I down know of any engine being capable of modelling physics 100% correct. There are many reasons for wanting to model physics less realistically in a physics engine (OT for this thread).

 

What more do you want?

[Ghideon]

Just now, DandelionTheory said:

What more do you want?

For what?