Physics engine for proof of concept

[Ghideon]

17 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

working on a proof of concept...

Here is an honest suggestion based on what I understand about the claims and the models:
Option 1:
 1a: Study basic physics and how the current laws works. You will find how and why your current attempts are doomed according to known physics.
 1b: Continue to pursue enough skills and knowledge to make scientific progress in some area of physics.  

Option 2:
2a: Continue detailed attempts as the ones above. All attempts will fail, all ideas rejected and you will maybe not understand how and why.
2b: repeat 2a

Personally I claim to be at step 1a. I will not pursue 1b. 

 

[DandelionTheory]

24 minutes ago, Strange said:

You still have not said what the external source of energy is.

If they are just acting on each other, with no external source of energy, then there cannot be a net change in momentum. 

 

right, with 2 interacting no net motion is seen. 

with 2 weights and a pin no net motion is seen;

but with 3 weights and a pin, the other mass slings around, at some angles in the cycle the center pin and another weight are inline with another weight's interacting force, that would make the interacting masses 2kg and 1kg, but while the line between the initial mass and the pin are 90 degrees from the acting 3rd force the interacting masses are 1kg and 1kg

Edited April 4, 2020 by DandelionTheory

[Strange]

37 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

one weight(I2) and pin(I1) 

C= center pin, (i made it a while ago)

I am trying to make sense of this. It is as cyptic as everything else you have posted.

So we have a round pin (I1: black circle with blue cross) that rotates? I assume that is what the green circular arrow represents? What makes I1 rotate? That is: what is the source of energy for this rotation?

And a weight (I2: black oval) that ... what? Is moving towards I1? Is that what the green chevrons represent? What makes I2 move? That is: what is the source of energy for this movement?

What is the red rectangle? Is it moving? Is that what the green chevrons represent? What makes it move? That is: what is the source of energy for this movement?

24 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

I1 and I2 acting on eachother. they will attempt to spin around eachother, the pin allows the weight to roll around it in this case.

You say the weight (I2) rolls around I1. Is that what the green circular arrow represents? The path of I2? (In which case, what do the green chevrons represent?) And what makes I2 roll around? Is it attached to I1? Is it just friction? But it doesn't appear to be attached to I1 - but is that what the red rectangle represents: a rod attaching I2 to I1?

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

right, with 2 interacting no net motion is seen. 

with 2 weights and a pin no net motion is seen;

but with 3 another mass slings around, at some angles in the cycle the center pin and another weight are inline with another weight's interacting force, that would make the interacting masses 2kg and 1kg, but while the line between the initial mass and the pin are 90 degrees from the acting 3rd force the interacting masses are 1kg and 1kg

You have still not said what the external source of energy is.

6 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

the center pin and another weight are inline with another weight's interacting force

Is the first "another weight" the same thing as the second "another weight"?

I really have no idea what that "explanation" is supposed to convey.

[Ghideon]

4 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

right, with 2 interacting no net motion is seen, with 2 weights and a pin no net motion is seen;

but with 3 another mass slings around, at some angles in the cycle the center pin and another weight are inline with another weight's interacting force, that would make the interacting masses 2kg and 1kg, but while the line between the initial mass and the pin are 90 degrees from the acting 3rd force the interacting masses are 1kg and 1kg

Does that imply conservation of momentum or not?

[Strange]

8 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

but with 3 another mass slings around, at some angles in the cycle the center pin and another weight are inline with another weight's interacting force, that would make the interacting masses 2kg and 1kg, but while the line between the initial mass and the pin are 90 degrees from the acting 3rd force the interacting masses are 1kg and 1kg

What are the "forces" you talk about? Are they hitting (bouncing off) each other? Are they attached to each other (with strings, rods, springs or...)?

[DandelionTheory]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

 I assume that is what the green circular arrow represents? What makes I1 rotate?

I1 is into the page, B1 is the magnetic field direction (green arrow) due to I1.

I2, which is around a magnetic core material(red box), induces B2 in the core material(red box) in the direction indicated by the green arrows within the red box.

1 minute ago, Ghideon said:

Does that imply conservation of momentum or not?

of course it does, its just some of the masses are not aligned with the force vectors when they are applied, and therefore the application of F=m*a changes based on angle.

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

What are the "forces" you talk about? Gravity? Are they hitting (bouncing off) each other? Are they attached to each other (with strings, rods, springs or...)?

you didnt watch the video...?

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

I1 is into the page, B1 is the magnetic field direction (green arrow) due to I1.

I2, which is around a magnetic core material(red box), induces B2 in the core material(red box) in the direction indicated by the green arrows within the red box.

Wait ... what !?

I1 is a magnet? You have never mentioned this before. It was just a pin a moment ago.

I2 is inducing the magnetic field around I1? So I2 is a magnet? Or an electric wire? I thought it was just a weight. 

If I2 is a wire, what is the source of the current?

So the red rectangle is a ferromagnetic core, or something. And I2 and red-box form a solenoid? What do the green chevrons represent? The north pole of the electromagnet? Or ...?

Is the magnetic field B2 changing? (It must be to induce a field in I1) And therefore the current in I2 (if it is a wire). If so how? Sine wave? Square wave? What is the source?

So this is all some sort of bizarrely complicated electric motor?

I am just so confused now. I am going to have to go and lie down for a bit.

Have you ever been diagnosed on the Autistic spectrum? That might explain why you post partial explanations: because the rest is in your head you assume others must know about it too.

[Ghideon]

12 minutes ago, Strange said:

I am just so confused now. I am going to have to go and lie down for a bit.

OP is mixing content from another thread that have magnetics https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/121593-center-of-mass-translation/?tab=comments#comment-1136014

I'm confused as well. I feel the need for a craft beer. And then some sleep.

 

 

[DandelionTheory]

11 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Does that imply conservation of momentum or not?

yes it does.

17 minutes ago, Strange said:

I1 is a magnet? You have never mentioned this before. It was just a pin a moment ago.

I1 is a current. 

18 minutes ago, Strange said:

I2 is inducing the magnetic field around I1?

i said:

25 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

B1 is the magnetic field direction (green arrow) due to I1.

, but i assumed you knew that I1 meant a current and B1 was its magnetic field.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Strange said:

...?

if I1 and I2 were currents, B1 and B2 would represent a possible magnetic field they produce, if thr red box was a core material.

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

but i assumed you knew that I1 meant a current and B1 was its magnetic field

No, I had no idea. I just assumed they were labels to identify the objects.

OK. So we have two electric currents, I1 and I2.

I2 is in a loop around a core, forming an electromagnet. What is the source of that current?

I1 is in a length of wire. How long is that wire? What is the source of the current? Where is the rest of the wire in relation to this setup (ie. it must form a closed loop)

If the wire carrying I1 is going into the page, I don't understand what the pin C is doing? Is it going through the wire sideways? Alongside the wire? Is this pin relevant? Is it also metallic and have any current and or magnetic field associated with it?

 

And you still haven't said what the external source of energy is or what the whole system pushes against.

 

[DandelionTheory]

31 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Does that imply conservation of momentum or not?

fig1 represents how the mass variable of F1 is not the same as the mass variable in F2.

F1 = F2

F1 = 1kg * a

F2 = 2kg * a

while fig2 represents 3 opposite but equal reactions on 4 bodies.

7 minutes ago, Strange said:

Is this pin relevant

the pin is the wire I1 travels through.

8 minutes ago, Strange said:

I1 is in a length of wire. How long is that wire?

per unit length

[Strange]

24 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

per unit length

If you are not actually going to answer the questions asked, then I give up.

In summary:

1. You appear to be claiming that there will be a net momentum, which violates known physics.

  1a. Although you also deny this, so I'm not sure what the point of all this is.

2. If your model supports this then, obviously, there is something incorrect or, more likely, missing from your model.

3. As you are unable to say what the source of external energy is, I assume that might be one of the missing factors in the model.

  3a. But as you are unable to answer any detailed questions about the model (appearing to assume we are all mind readers) it could be anything at all.

Good luck. I can only repeat Ghideon's suggestion that your learn some basic physics before assembling random collections of (poorly described) currents and wires and then asking people how they work.

I also suggest that next time you pose a question like this, you provide a detailed and correct description at the beginning. Label everything. Say what they actually are: don't call a wire, a "pin"; don't call a coil, a "weight", and so on. And then fully answer any questions. If you are going to keep bits of the model secret and lie about what the components are, you are not going to get helpful answers.

[swansont]

11 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

You could download a well known physics engine and play the scene I put together, observe the script. It's too much to ask I guess. 
 

Yes, considering you could explain what’s going on. Too much to ask, I guess. 

Quote

3 weights pivot a round pin.

One definition of pin is a cylindrical object.

 

Quote

If force is oppositely applied to a pin and the center every time force is applied, the center of gravity will shift.
 

Yes, that’s what happens with forces. You get an acceleration 

Quote

I've tried to mess it up by not applying one weight/pin force, but the wobbly motion still throws the center out of it's circumference.

“Throws the center out of it’s (sic) circumference”?

 

Quote

The script applies force in opposite directions. I don't know how else to get you to look.

 

4 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

when a weight is below(right weight and top weight) or above(Left weight) the pin on the X axis, the script gives either +Y magnitude to the pin and -Y the weight, or -Y magnitude to the pin and +Y to the weight respectively. If there are 3 equal mass weights, the center of mass ( the pin) is thrown off center "farther than its radius to the weight"

The ball you call “the pin” is not the center of mass.

3 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

thats what the physics engine was for.

im giving you an observation of momentum that i cannot explain, im showing you what happens in a physics engine when forces are applied. look in the script, both +magnitude and -magnitude are applied to the system in opposite directions. in the video, 1 x magnitude was used.

If 2 weights and a pin were used, the pin would oscillate within its radius if any force is applied to the system.

if 3 weights and a pin are used, an imbalance in momentum is seen on the pin which carries it past the length of its radius.

Please explain what you mean by “pin”

[Ghideon]

2 hours ago, DandelionTheory said:

fig1 represents how the mass variable of F1 is not the same as the mass variable in F2.

F1 = F2

F1 = 1kg * a

F2 = 2kg * a

while fig2 represents 3 opposite but equal reactions on 4 bodies.

Ok, so momentum is conserved. What is it that generates the forces? How does the complete system look like? You seem to make claims about some system, composed of some parts. But you never tell about the boundaries of the system or what external systems that interact with the system you try to model. 

Have you just misunderstood the physics engine? Maybe it does allow your script to apply a force to an object, without having to bother about where such a force would come from in reality? In the real wold there is no F1 or F2 just appearing and staring to push things. But in a simulation such forces are possible.

edit: I looked at your script, it contains "addRelativeForce". I just checked the manual briefly, it seems like you can apply a force that does not have an equal an opposite counterforce. That is perfectly fine in a game and in a simulation but it does not match reality. Maybe that is the error you are looking for?

 

Your math by the way seems wrong. You seem to claim that 1kg=2kg. Typo maybe?

 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Ghideon

[DandelionTheory]

On 4/4/2020 at 6:01 AM, Ghideon said:

edit: I looked at your script, it contains "addRelativeForce". I just checked the manual briefly

Yay, now look to the script and ask yourself how I represented an equal but opposite force.

On 4/4/2020 at 6:01 AM, Ghideon said:

Your math by the way seems wrong. You seem to claim that 1kg=2kg. Typo maybe?

Maybe I should mention the lines connecting the masses are rigid and rotate around the common mass.

I hope this also answers swansont's question about what a pin is. 

A "pin" in this scenario is the common connected mass to all other masses by a rigid body with the pin as the pivot point.

[Ghideon]

44 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

Yay, now look to the script and ask yourself how I represented an equal but opposite force.

I looked at the script and I ask you. Please explain where and how the equal and opposite forces are applied.

 

44 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

Maybe I should mention the lines connecting the masses are rigid and rotate around the common mass.

Ok. a=a is false below, there are different a's?

On 4/4/2020 at 12:50 PM, DandelionTheory said:

F1 = F2

F1 = 1kg * a

F2 = 2kg * a

 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Ghideon
Math section added to post

[DandelionTheory]

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Ok. a=a is false below, there are different a's?

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

I looked at the script and I ask you. Please explain where and how the equal and opposite forces are applied.

this is an example from the script:

Right.gameObject.rigidbody.AddRelativeForce (0,-holder,0);
Pin.gameObject.rigidbody.AddRelativeForce(0,holder,0);

 

how else would i represent "equal but opposite"?

 

[Ghideon]

5 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

 

What is it that generates F2? 
The red arrow is possible in Unity3D by using AddRelativeForce. It is not possible in reality for such a force appear out of nowhere. 

 

[DandelionTheory]

 

4 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

What is it that generates F2? 
The red arrow is possible in Unity3D by using AddRelativeForce. It is not possible in reality for such a force appear out of nowhere. 

 

then how do you do it?

[Ghideon]

1 minute ago, DandelionTheory said:

then how do you do it?

In the script? Or in reality?

[DandelionTheory]

14 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

In the script? Or in reality?

In the physics engine. I want a good representation of reality I can put numbers into, that won't argue back with opinion.

[dimreepr]

24 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

In the physics engine. I want a good representation of reality I can put numbers into, that won't argue back with opinion.

We all want to be right, but without that argued opinion, how do you know?

[Dagl1]

Let your force be air or photons, 'shot' from a point a little away from it? Forces have to come from somewhere, so if you will apply force, then something has to apply that force. That thing (let's say a laser), will undergo an equal but opposite force when 'shooting' the photons at your construct.

*Hope I didn't give bad advice here 

[Ghideon]

30 minutes ago, DandelionTheory said:

In the physics engine. I want a good representation of reality I can put numbers into, that won't argue back with opinion.

Not sure what you are asking for. The physics engine does deliberately to allow you to model things that does not match the laws of physics. If a reaction-less drive is modeled in Unity3D it will not argue back with opinion, it will work flawlessly. 

Comparison:
Lets say you have one single object in the engine, a ball with mass m
Apply AddRelativeForce() to that ball in a script.
Does the ball accelerate? 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Ghideon

[DandelionTheory]

9 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Not sure what you are asking for. The physics engine does deliberately to allow you to model things that does not match the laws of physics. If a reaction-less drive is modeled in Unity3D it will not argue back with opinion, it will work flawlessly. 

Comparison:
Lets say you have one single object in the engine, a ball with mass m
Apply AddRelativeForce() to that ball in a script.
Does the ball accelerate? 

So solar panels to motor to masses right?

I wrote a calculation for the center of mass. I've seen the same kind of motion with one mass being forced upon about the pin in one direction, and another script with equal but opposite force on the center pin. I'm really trying to make it not work...

12 minutes ago, Dagl1 said:

Let your force be air or photons, 'shot' from a point a little away from it? Forces have to come from somewhere, so if you will apply force, then something has to apply that force. That thing (let's say a laser), will undergo an equal but opposite force when 'shooting' the photons at your construct.

*Hope I didn't give bad advice here 

Gotcha, these are swinging weights, one with an opposing direction. Maybe looking at the center of gravity shifting would give a clue.

Edited April 7, 2020 by DandelionTheory