The world has changed...

[Casio]

My two pence worth...

The world has not changed. The world is exactly the same now as it was in the beginning. Look at the wild life world population and ask if they have changed over long periods of time! You'll find that they have not. Now look at the most (so called) intelligent life on the planet, us the human race. We've hated each other created wars and world wars against each other, we tried and tried to reinvent the wheel many times to sort of get one over on each other, like I'm better than you attitude. We as the human race has caused each other nothing but suffering over time and had to fight off serious pandemics along the way, and the latest one now COVID-19 is another war, which the National Health Services are the front line soldiers fighting this war on our behalf. Up to the 18th April over 6500 people have died on a world scale from this virus and according to data I've read its not actually plateau out at this time. This is the human races next war, the invisible killer that is killing off our most previous people, the health services, and if we loose all those the human race would then be left to their own devices, which amounts to no defense at all. We seriously need to stop and think about this, the world has not changed, but human attitude has, and not for the better.  

[zapatos]

7 minutes ago, Casio said:

Up to the 18th April over 6500 people have died on a world scale from this virus and according to data I've read

Closer to 165,000 deaths.

[Casio]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

Closer to 165,000 deaths.

Sorry I meant the mean average per day. As of the 18th April the total figures were 160,047. 

[dimreepr]

22 hours ago, Casio said:

My two pence worth...

The world has not changed. The world is exactly the same now as it was in the beginning. Look at the wild life world population and ask if they have changed over long periods of time! You'll find that they have not. Now look at the most (so called) intelligent life on the planet, us the human race. We've hated each other created wars and world wars against each other, we tried and tried to reinvent the wheel many times to sort of get one over on each other, like I'm better than you attitude. We as the human race has caused each other nothing but suffering over time and had to fight off serious pandemics along the way, and the latest one now COVID-19 is another war, which the National Health Services are the front line soldiers fighting this war on our behalf.

Again, I'm not seeking any type of utopia; just a little better for a little bit of time... 

Anything we establish now, however just, will be subject to change/corruption; all we can hope for, is that this is another step on the ladder... Hopefully to a better place, that we don't actively try to destroy... 

[dimreepr]

On 4/18/2020 at 12:47 PM, Alex_Krycek said:

I think it's likely to have the opposite effect, with even less people caring about the environment or "big problems" because of this crisis.

Our economic system is still dog eat dog, no matter how you look at it.  Yeah, the government has made some token efforts, which is barely enough for most people, but the only people I see who are content with the current state of economic affairs (i.e. total economic shutdown) are those who are financially insulated (i.e. the extremely wealthy, those with cushy jobs, and people who depend on others, such as children who live with their parents, for financial subsistence).   

Everyone else is in one heck of a nightmarish survival situation.  And frankly, when you can't put food on the table to feed your family and are facing a towering wall of apathy from society,  issues like global warming seem like pompous trivialities.  At the end of the day this is why people are out protesting the shutdown - they're dying anyway.  They might as well work and face the possibility of infection rather than starve to death in silence at home.  

Imagine if we lived in a world, where money isn't monetised; but just used as an exchange for things we need.
Imagine a world where trickle down economics, means something other than, I'm gonna hide this; intrinsically valueless peace of paper, just incase it turns out I can eat it.
Imagine a world where everyone gets to eat, because we've got enough food; and nobody starves because I'm jealous that they get their fill; despite my hard work and their laziness...
Imagine a world where a fashion model doesn't need to go hungry in order to feed on money

[Alex_Krycek]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Imagine if we lived in a world, where money isn't monetised; but just used as an exchange for things we need.
Imagine a world where trickle down economics, means something other than, I'm gonna hide this; intrinsically valueless peace of paper, just incase it turns out I can eat it.
Imagine a world where everyone gets to eat, because we've got enough food; and nobody starves because I'm jealous that they get their fill; despite my hard work and their laziness...
Imagine a world where a fashion model doesn't need to go hungry in order to feed on money

I think with the right cultural mindset such a world can be realized.  

 

[Area54]

On 4/20/2020 at 1:49 PM, dimreepr said:

The point of this thread is that things have changed; suddenly we see the workers who are fundamental to a functioning society and, by extention, the economy; and it's by and large the worst paid, who often have to rely on charity (food bank's) to make ends meet (even in wealthy countries).

And there's enough for us all.

I suspect your central message may be going past most members. I think you are saying, in summary: we have shown the ability, to varying degrees of success, to tackle large problems that we previously ignored. On the back of that we have an opportunity to make that approach an essential part of our way of running society. Let's not miss it.

I wonder if you are not over-influenced by the situation in the UK where we have, as I understand it, at a stroke, eliminated homelessness and found cash, that was never there before, for the NHS. Sadly, in America the situation seems to have become yet another bi-partisan battleground and the only legacy may be mass graves and provocative invective. In the third world, where many are already at the bottom, what's another problem to add to the violence, the endemic illnesses, the corruption, the lack of work, etc? In Hong Kong and South Korea they dealt with problem efficiently and effectively. Arguably, they have no need of change. Each country and continent is different.

That said I share your optimism in that we have do an opportunity to do things differently, to do them better. How we grasp it, time will tell.

[dimreepr]

34 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I think with the right cultural mindset such a world can be realized.  

 

I hope so...

[MigL]

'Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one."

John Lennon  1971

Imagining is easy.
Realization is the hard part.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, MigL said:

'Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one."

John Lennon  1971

Imagining is easy.
Realization is the hard part.

The hard part is, accepting we could live as one; when I clearly worked harder...

[J.C.MacSwell]

46 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The hard part is, accepting we could live as one; when I clearly worked harder...

Lennon's missing verse:

"Imagine there's no slackers...

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Lennon's missing verse:

"Imagine there's no slackers...

I just watched a film about the role black women played in sending NASA to the moon, I have no idea how historically accurate it was, but it was believable; at every step their contribution was doubted and confronted because, of perception.

IIRC Bill Gate's said "if you want the most efficient way to do something, ask a lazy person".

I think his missing verse would be, "Imagine there's no difference"

[J.C.MacSwell]

26 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I just watched a film about the role black women played in sending NASA to the moon, I have no idea how historically accurate it was, but it was believable; at every step their contribution was doubted and confronted because, of perception.

IIRC Bill Gate's said "if you want the most efficient way to do something, ask a lazy person".

I think his missing verse would be, "Imagine there's no difference"

Hidden Figures? Excellent movie. I saw it in the theater. It's based on a true story.

The Wiki covers the level of historical accuracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures

[dimreepr]

13 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Hidden Figures? Excellent movie. I saw it in the theater. It's based on a true story.

So, things can change given the motivation...

Edited May 5, 2020 by dimreepr

[dimreepr]

Imagine a world where hard work is not rewarded, but excused by the meritocracy we all aspire too...

[MigL]

On the other hand, if nothing is hard, nothing has value.

Why work hard to raise a family ?
Why try to leave a better world for our children ?
Why go to the effort to get along with other people/countries/cultures ?
Why bother learning anything, learning new stuff is hard work ?
...
Why strive to keep a marriage together ?
( oops, that one is already history )

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by MigL

[dimreepr]

17 minutes ago, MigL said:

On the other hand, if nothing is hard, nothing has value.

Why work hard to raise a family ?
Why try to leave a better world for our children ?
Why go to the effort to get along with other people/countries/cultures ?
Why bother learning anything, learning new stuff is hard work ?
...
Why strive to keep a marriage together ?
( oops, that one is already history )

 

 

[dimreepr]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

learning new stuff is hard work ?

As is, stoking the fire...

[Phi for All]

27 minutes ago, MigL said:

On the other hand, if nothing is hard, nothing has value.

Aside from using the extreme end of the scale like a scarecrow, this argument doesn't address the way the world has changed. Can't I (and others) find value in working "smart" instead? Shouldn't some things be made as easy as a society can possibly make them so the society can focus on things that are inherently difficult? If putting food on the table, or staying healthy, or being part of your representative government weren't such a struggle for so many, rather than making society valueless, don't you think it would encourage the vast majority to find real challenges for their hard work? 

[MigL]

I'm an excellent artist, always have been; I can sketch a recognizable likeness of a person blindfolded.
( I have actually done this, in Gr12 art class, while I was in Gr10 )
But art has no interest for me whatsoever.

I have always struggled with Mathematics, and still do to this day.
( probably even more so, I've forgotten an awful lot )
Yet Physics, the application of Mathematics to the real world, Is my passion, and what I find most interesting.

Seems contradictory, doesn't it ?

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I'm an excellent artist, always have been; I can sketch a recognizable likeness of a person blindfolded.
( I have actually done this, in Gr12 art class, while I was in Gr10 )
But art has no interest for me whatsoever.

I've known many people with wicked skills they're not that interested in pursuing. If the skills are marketable, a lot of those folks end up doing that for a living just because it's less of a struggle in life if you're making good money. But it's easy to be miserable in that situation because everyone loves you for skills you couldn't care less about. That's not the kind of hard work that makes you value it more, is it?

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I have always struggled with Mathematics, and still do to this day.
( probably even more so, I've forgotten an awful lot )
Yet Physics, the application of Mathematics to the real world, Is my passion, and what I find most interesting.

Seems contradictory, doesn't it ?

I think everybody has a "what I find most interesting", and I think it's an underused resource in our modern, high-density civilization. I would consider it a super-smart investment to find out how We could help you arrange your life to take advantage of the fruits of your passion. I would rather have you spend your time applying maths to our lives in the ways you find most interesting than have you spend a minute worrying about choosing between food or medicine. If you suddenly decide you want to take a break from physics to focus on your blind-sketching talents for a change, I'd rather you didn't also have to worry about basics like rent and who's going to watch your kids while you're blindfolded. 

What I find contradictory is making you do something for a living you don't care for. You shouldn't have to forget your passions just to live like a normal person. If you wanted to fly airplanes and travel the world and do many extravagant things, you're going to have to figure out how to make a LOT of money, but someone who just wants a modest life should be able to pursue their passions, and I'm willing to invest in that as a taxpayer to help the world change for the better. 

[MigL]

I get the impression we are talking past each other, Phi.
You are talking about essentials for living/surviving, which I fully agree with.
I am talking about the non-essential things we all have a passion for.

Take this forum for example.
How many times have you told new people who post nonsense, that, if they have a passion for science they should be willing to invest the time and effort to learn the basics of that science ? If it's valuable enough to them, they will do it; if it isn't, we never hear from them again on the forums.

Another example, often used for spoilt rich kids.
Things which are obtained for free, or gifted, are never as valuable as the things you had to sweat for.
( there is also an old Italian saying about certain food tasting better if it's given to you, rather than cooking it yourself )

[J.C.MacSwell]

People are happier when they manage to see improvements, especially when they have worked to obtain them and contributed in a way that is appreciated by others and respected. I think that is generally instinctive. The trick is making yourself believe that's the case, while pursuing healthy goals for yourself and others.

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, MigL said:

Things which are obtained for free, or gifted, are never as valuable as the things you had to sweat for.

That very much depends on how hungry you are.

13 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

People are happier when they manage to see improvements, especially when they have worked to obtain them and contributed in a way that is appreciated by others and respected. I think that is generally instinctive. The trick is making yourself believe that's the case, while pursuing healthy goals for yourself and others.

Some people are just happy to be; in which case it would seem the trick is, making others believe you deserve to be...

[Eiot]

Canadians are the most deceitful lousy phony nation. Not only they don't talk about aboriginal genocide ,they have stopped talking about covid virus. Whole Montreal nord is infected now. Mother is infected-stupid workaholic fool. She simply sits home and does nothing. Canada has shittiest healthcare. And no bloggers to talk about it on youtube-except immigrant freaks talk about "travel".