teroko Posted April 8, 2020 Author Posted April 8, 2020 Just now, Strange said: I apologise. Maybe a language problem? When you said "ever existed" did you mean "always existed"? Right. That was the intention. 1
Eise Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 On 4/7/2020 at 2:32 PM, Strange said: Indeed. It is much easier to explain the state of the world with multiple gods disagreeing with one another. Otherwise you have one god who appears to be insane, stupid or dead. Or a narcist. "You must believe in Me, and live according My rules, otherwise you come into hell".
Casio Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Eise said: Or a narcist. "You must believe in Me, and live according My rules, otherwise you come into hell". It certainly doesn't look like anyone wholeheartedly believes in an Almighty God, which is probably the most realist idea of why earth we live on is so plagued with so many problems.
Strange Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, Casio said: It certainly doesn't look like anyone wholeheartedly believes in an Almighty God, which is probably the most realist idea of why earth we live on is so plagued with so many problems. Some people (the majority) do believe in gods. In the past, believe in gods was almost universal. But the same problems existed. So it doesn't seem relevant whether people believe or not. Maybe the problems would disappear if nobody believed in gods?
Prometheus Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 16 hours ago, MigL said: When I was younger, I used to read Conan the Barbarian. A fictional character created by R E Howard, whose deity was the God, Crom. I will never forget Conan's one belief... "Crom helps those who help themselves." and I wish more people would insert their God in the above saying. Somewhat ironically that is the premise of many Satanic sects.
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 4 hours ago, Strange said: Some people (the majority) do believe in gods. In the past, believe in gods was almost universal. But the same problems existed. So it doesn't seem relevant whether people believe or not. Maybe the problems would disappear if nobody believed in gods? Yeah but, when the message was new and understood, they didn't sweat the small stuff... Like "who is this god person anyway"... 36 minutes ago, Prometheus said: Somewhat ironically that is the premise of many Satanic sects. It does seem to fly in the face of charity.
koti Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 17 hours ago, MigL said: When I was younger, I used to read Conan the Barbarian. A fictional character created by R E Howard, whose deity was the God, Crom. I will never forget Conan's one belief... "Crom helps those who help themselves." and I wish more people would insert their God in the above saying. You might like this then: 1
Phi for All Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Casio said: It certainly doesn't look like anyone wholeheartedly believes in an Almighty God, which is probably the most realist idea of why earth we live on is so plagued with so many problems. I don't understand this reasoning AT ALL. There are over 9000 sects of Christianity alone, and most would consider themselves wholehearted believers, and yet they disagree. They have their own plague of problems, so your statement makes little sense. Belief in an almighty god sounds like a poor solution to problems in the natural world.
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 29 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Belief in an almighty god sounds like a poor solution to problems in the natural world. But imagine a world in which the good people are inspired to help others, despite what the bad people do? It's possible without a vengeful god, it just seems easier with it...
Phi for All Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: But imagine a world in which the good people are inspired to help others, despite what the bad people do? It's possible without a vengeful god, it just seems easier with it... I reject that argument for the same reasons I reject the idea that religion is the only way to be a moral person. Imagine a world where people only treat you well because they're afraid of divine retribution. I'd much rather people understand the reasons for cooperation than feel like they'll roast in hell if they don't.
iNow Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, dimreepr said: It's possible without a vengeful god, it just seems easier with it... In what way?
Strange Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: It's possible without a vengeful god, it just seems easier with it... Perhaps you feel that way because you have grown up with a vengeful (=malicious) god as part of your background?
MigL Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: 1 hour ago, Prometheus said: Somewhat ironically that is the premise of many Satanic sects. It does seem to fly in the face of charity. You guys are looking at it wrong. It is not 'help yourself' at the expense of other people. But 'help yourself (s)' and don't rely on a deity to help you. I guess only Koti and I understand and appreciate Conan.
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, iNow said: In what way? If something can act as your vengeance, or if one thinks/believes it can, one is liberated; free to be good, without the fear of being a snowflake. 8 minutes ago, Strange said: Perhaps you feel that way because you have grown up with a vengeful (=malicious) god as part of your background? Not at all, despite a religious background; I just came to the understanding that being vengeful, really doesn't hurt anyone but me and if we can do vengeance by proxy, it may help others come to the same conclusion.
Strange Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Not at all, despite a religious background; I just came to the understanding that being vengeful, really doesn't hurt anyone but me and if we can do vengeance by proxy, it may help others come to the same conclusion. I'm not sure. Having a culture based on a vengeful god leads to rules like "an eye for an eye", cutting off the hands of theives, etc. So it hurts a lot of people. Also, I don't understand "being vengeful, really doesn't hurt anyone but me." If you are vengeful, then you will hurt others. If your chosen god is vengeful, then you will be wishing hurt on others (as you say, by proxy).
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, Strange said: I'm not sure. Having a culture based on a vengeful god leads to rules like "an eye for an eye", cutting off the hands of theives, etc. So it hurts a lot of people. It does when that culture forgets why vengeance is better by proxy.
Strange Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 1 minute ago, dimreepr said: It does when that culture forgets why vengeance is better by proxy. What does "vengeance by proxy" mean?
iNow Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, dimreepr said: If something can act as your vengeance, or if one thinks/believes it can, one is liberated; free to be good, without the fear That freedom is already there even in the absence of a vengeful overseer.
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Strange said: What does "vengeance by proxy" mean? It means that something else deals with all the hate we build up...
Prometheus Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 23 minutes ago, MigL said: You guys are looking at it wrong. It is not 'help yourself' at the expense of other people. But 'help yourself (s)' and don't rely on a deity to help you. I think your are getting Satanism wrong. They are generally a nice bunch, with a philosophy of striving to be the best they can be (unconstrained by God), most without harming others (they are a diverse bunch though). I think only a few Satanic sects actually believe in Satan as pure evil and want to bring death to the world, mainly in America for some reason.
MigL Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) To be fair, that idea of vengeance from the Old Testament, has been somewhat modified in the New Testament, with Christ's policy of forgiveness., even those who crucify him. Even so, God, His Father, demanded 'retribution' from his Son ( become human ) for humanity's sins, and he had to die on the cross. So the idea of vengeance wasn't totally forgotten. ( according to scriptures, not necessarily reality ). My comment wasn't regarding Satanism, Prometheus. I know very little about that subject. Edited April 9, 2020 by MigL
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, iNow said: That freedom is already there even in the absence of a vengeful overseer. Like I said, it's possible; but for some it's easier if someone takes care of it for us... 2 minutes ago, MigL said: Even so, God, His Father, demanded 'retribution' from his Son ( become human ) for humanity's sins, and he had to die on the cross. So the idea of vengeance wasn't totally forgotten. ( according to scriptures, not necessarily reality ) We've all got to die, can I then seek vengeance?
MigL Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 You need to re-read that, Dim. I don't know how you got that meaning.
dimreepr Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, MigL said: You need to re-read that, Dim. I don't know how you got that meaning. Fair point.
Prometheus Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, MigL said: My comment wasn't regarding Satanism, Prometheus. I know very little about that subject. OK, i missed your point then. Everyone likes a bit of Conan though.
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