Trump Connection to Hydroxychloroquine (split from Corona virus general questions mega thread)

[MigL]

Maybe my bias is showing too.

It seems that J Trudeau's ( PM of Canada ) handling of the crisis has earned him an approval rating of 75 %, while the Ontario Premier is in the middle 80s, and the Quebec Premier has an approval rating in the 90s ( ! ).

President D Trump, on the other hand, has dropped down to an approval rating of about 40 %, with over 50 % disapproving of his performance.
( according to Yahoo News )

If this lasts till the fall, he's toast.

[swansont]

23 hours ago, PhilGeis said:

Good grief - as ill informed on science and policy as many of you are - you sure are experts re. your bias.

Do you have anything of substance to add?

I mean, do you have evidence that Trump doesn't have a financial stake, when the reporting is that he does? Yes, it's small, and this won't move the needle, but there is a substantial track record of Trump funneling money to himself so it's not unreasonable IMO to have raised the question. If all you have is "bias!" then please go vent somewhere else. All this whining is giving me a headache.

(To me the more likely motivation is that if it pans out, he's hailed as a hero. Nothing more than his narcissism in play)

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

If all you have is "bias!" then please go vent somewhere else.

This is evidence of the grim effectiveness of Trump's flood-the-zone-with-shit strategy. Expectations are so low wrt his moral character that pointing out just one of his obvious conflicts of interest is met with calls of Bias! from his supporters. Apparently his behavior is perfectly fine, and if we'd just get over our dislike of the man himself, we'd all see that. It supposedly has nothing to do with how we feel about lies and corruption.

Huh.

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 4/9/2020 at 8:01 AM, swansont said:

 

(To me the more likely motivation is that if it pans out, he's hailed as a hero. Nothing more than his narcissism in play)

This is my take as well. Obviously he believes it has a better than not chance it works, both the hydrochloroquine (he'll still claim victory if something else works) and his getting the credit if it does.

Obviously as well he could have gone the "statesman" route and gained in that manner...but it's just not in him.

Compare him if you will to Mike Pence, who has done much better in this regard, all while praising "the President" with a straight face.

[John Cuthber]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

This is my take as well. Obviously he believes it has a better than not chance it works, both the hydrochloroquine (he'll still claim victory if something else works) and his getting the credit if it does.

Obviously as well he could have gone the "statesman" route and gained in that manner...but it's just not in him.

Compare him if you will to Mike Pence, who has done much better in this regard, all while praising "the President" with a straight face.

It it turns out to be dangerous snake oil (and it looks like it wil), do you think Trump will take responsibility for the damage he caused?

[swansont]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

It it turns out to be dangerous snake oil (and it looks like it wil), do you think Trump will take responsibility for the damage he caused?

The trend says no, since Trump never takes responsibility fir anything bad.

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

It it turns out to be dangerous snake oil (and it looks like it wil), do you think Trump will take responsibility for the damage he caused?

Outside of any effect due to the message being off the mark, how do you tie his exuberance for hydroxychloroquine to specific damage?

If a M.D. prescribes it and it doesn't work, is that on Trump? If there is a shortage for better uses, is that potentially damage caused by Trump?

He's essentially advocating it as a potential tool for physicians toolbags. That on it's own is not a bad thing.

Here are a couple of Canadian efforts studying it's potential for use against Covid 19.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/hydroxychloroquine-trial-underway-at-university-of-alberta-1.4891216

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mcgill-university-researchers-looking-for-patients-to-test-hydroxychloroquine-as-treatment-for-covid-19-1.4886510

Do you think they're doing this because it's been advocated by Trump, LOL? If it turns out to be useless for Covid 19 is Trump responsible for that effort not being focused elsewhere?

Or is this just for any Americans duped into wasting significant resources on this? (or ingesting fish tank cleaner...)

2 hours ago, swansont said:

The trend says no, since Trump never takes responsibility fir anything bad.

The trend should be toward taking your President with a bucket of salt, and not exaggerating the importance of his medical advice. 

 

Or is all that just unfathomable to those that dislike him?

Edited April 10, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

42 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Outside of any effect due to the message being off the mark, how do you tie his exuberance for hydroxychloroquine to specific damage?

In the same way increases in hate crimes against Asians are tied to his calling it the Chinese virus. 

[John Cuthber]

46 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Outside of any effect due to the message being off the mark, how do you tie his exuberance for hydroxychloroquine to specific damage?

Inside of it, the death toll is already (reportedly) one.
The person who died from misunderstanding hydroxychloroquine  as chloroquine

Outside of the fact that he's wrong, I don't see the fact  that he's wrong causing a problem. ... obviously...

51 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The trend should be toward taking your President with a bucket of salt, and not exaggerating the importance of his medical advice. 

 

Or is all that just unfathomable to those that dislike him?

I'd like him more if he didn't lie about his competence to deliver medical advice.

Why does he choose to kill people (who don't dislike him) in this way?

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

In the same way increases in hate crimes against Asians are tied to his calling it the Chinese virus. 

That's OK. just as long as the rest of the world calls him the "German president of the USA".

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

In the same way increases in hate crimes against Asians are tied to his calling it the Chinese virus. 

Trump should be called out for his ineptitude, inability, unwillingness, or simply negligence in properly addressing the hate crimes. Instead he gets blamed and called racist for calling the virus, that most certainly came from China, the Chinese virus... and his detractors are left wondering why they continue to fail in making the case against him...

 

[iNow]

I suppose you can choose not to see the obvious connection between the words of leaders and the actions of their followers... deciding instead to lament “the left” if that’s your prerogative. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

I suppose you can choose not to see the obvious connection between the words of leaders and the actions of their followers... deciding instead to lament “the left” if that’s your prerogative. 

Sure. And "the left" can choose their strategy as to how to get rid of Trump. And I guess they can continue to claim their "ends justifying their means strategy" should have worked...if just everyone wasn't so damned racist....

[iNow]

Do you actually think humans of a left leaning political slant all operate like a monolithic unwavering unified bloc... like some sort of Borg hive mind?

Because if you don't, then your comments about “the left” seem inactionable and silly. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

Do you actually think humans of a left leaning political slant all operate like a monolithic unwavering unified bloc... like some sort of Borg hive mind?

 

Left leaning? Maybe some....but I'm referring to "the left"...as in: irrational identity politics anti Trump no matter what left...the ones that get all the press, and unfortunately drown the others out

...the ones that sound like they secretly hope hydroxychloroquine won't work...

[iNow]

So, like both of them?

[J.C.MacSwell]

22 hours ago, iNow said:

Do you actually think humans of a left leaning political slant all operate like a monolithic unwavering unified bloc... like some sort of Borg hive mind?

Because if you don't, then your comments about “the left” seem inactionable and silly. 

I would call Bill Maher "left leaning" (as opposed to "the left" as I described it)

“So when someone says, ‘What if people hear Chinese Virus and blame China?’ the answer is, ‘We should blame China.’ Not Chinese-Americans, but we can’t stop telling the truth because racists get the wrong idea. There’s always going to be idiots out there who want to indulge their prejudices, but this is an emergency! Don’t we have bigger tainted fish to fry?”

He continued, “Sorry Americans, we’re going to have to ask you to keep two ideas in your head at the same time: This has nothing to do with Asian-Americans and it has everything to do with China...

https://sportscool.com/2020/04/11/bill-maher-blasts-pc-uproar-over-chinese-virus-label-we-should-blame-china/

I would agree with him, with the caveat that I think Trump should make more effort to make it clear that Chinese-Americans, especially, and Chinese as a people should not be blamed. (He does on occasion do that type of thing, but IMO not often enough...and when he does "the left media" tends not to report it)

Because, as Maher says "there's always going to be idiots out there".

 

 

[Moontanman]

On 4/8/2020 at 7:39 AM, MigL said:

I think you guys are overplaying his greed, and underplaying his stupidity.

I honestly don't think that is possible... 

23 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Left leaning? Maybe some....but I'm referring to "the left"...as in: irrational identity politics anti Trump no matter what left...the ones that get all the press, and unfortunately drown the others out

...the ones that sound like they secretly hope hydroxychloroquine won't work...

Would you describe "the right" as in : irrational identity politics pro Trump no matter what right? 

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I honestly don't think that is possible... 

Would you describe "the right" as in : irrational identity politics pro Trump no matter what right? 

I would on that part. The right, generally, rejects identity politics. (the "alt right" would be an exception...and not in a good way)

Note the "quotation marks" in each case though.

I consider liberals to be reasonably left, and conservatives to be reasonably right.

Neither being part of "the left" or "the right".

Edited April 12, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I consider liberals to be reasonably left, and conservatives to be reasonably right.

Neither being part of "the left" or "the right".

And yet the moment you cast out labels like “left” and “right” you immediately bifurcate the world into a forced and unrepresentative binary “either/or” state in your mind. There is no spectrum or color, just black and white; hit and cold; us and them.

Instead of simply recognizing our shared uniqueness, our commonality from personal difference (everyone you ever meet will know things which you do not), you presume to know all you need to know about the individual human based on a one-dimensional label. 

You may as well be describing everyone based on the shape of their skull like the idiot phrenologists of old, and I know you well enough by now to acknowledge that’s not who you are at your core. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

And yet the moment you cast out labels like “left” and “right” you immediately bifurcate the world into a forced and unrepresentative binary “either/or” state in your mind. There is no spectrum or color, just black and white; hit and cold; us and them.

I

Bifurcate? Binary "either/or" state in my mind?

Give your head a shake. I literally mentioned 5 different "groups", from the left/right spectrum, in the single post from which you quoted. 

4 within the 2 sentences you quoted, giving some indication how they differ...

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I consider liberals to be reasonably left, and conservatives to be reasonably right.

Neither being part of "the left" or "the right".

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

Meanwhile, Trump decided to retweets a call to fire Dr. Anthony Fauci, the only person that's actually helping and whom the public actually trusts

https://www.axios.com/trump-fauci-retweet-conservative-backlash-coronavirus-071a7a88-e677-40db-90c4-493209a37e88.html

Quote

President Trump retweeted a tweet on Sunday night that concluded "Time to #FireFauci," which could unleash some conservatives' simmering suspicions about Dr. Anthony Fauci.

The state of play: Fauci, who has advised six presidents and held high government office back to 1984, is heralded on the cover of the forthcoming issue of The New Yorker as "THE MOST TRUSTED MAN IN AMERICA" — and rising celebrity is always dangerous for a Trump adviser.

• Fauci also seemed to fuel criticism of the president yesterday when CNN's Jake Tapper asked about a weekend New York Times story documenting warnings about the virus that Trump had downplayed.
• "[O]bviously, you could logically say that if you had a process that was ongoing, and you started mitigation earlier, you could have saved lives," Fauci replied. "Obviously, no one is going to deny that. ... But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then."
• The Drudge Report bannered the exchange: "FAUCI DOWNLOADS ON TRUMP."

Why it matters: Trump has embarked on what he has repeatedly called the biggest decision of his life — when to urge governors to begin rolling back shutdown guidance, allowing businesses to reopen.

Administration sources tell Axios they haven’t had the sense that Trump was ready to fire Fauci — at least that was the case before the tweet.

• But there is enormous pent-up energy among some of Trump’s allies in conservative media to launch a full-blown campaign to pressure the president to remove Fauci.

The most prominent conservative media figures — especially Fox News opinion stars — have so far mostly treated Fauci with kid gloves.

• And some administration officials have been shielding him from what would have been worse attacks from allies on the outside.
• These allies — who Trump has been reading and chatting with on the phone — blame Fauci for talking Trump into the shutdown, and for basing advice on faulty modeling.

The bottom line: Trump’s tweet may be the green light some prominent conservatives have been seeking to unload on Fauci.

 

So, now in addition to the additional security Fauci has needed to protect his life from these idiots due to being good at his job (for at least the last 2 weeks), the character assassination and painting him as public enemy number one is about to get much louder and more intense.

Edited April 13, 2020 by iNow

[Strange]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

Meanwhile, Trump decided to retweets a call to fire Dr. Anthony Fauci, the only person that's actually helping and whom the public actually trusts

Although, if you actually read what he tweeted, he appears to be saying that the quoted tweet is wrong (although he only defends his own actions, not Fauci, but that's only to be expected).

Am I defending Trump? What a weird and messed up world we are in

But no, I am not defending trump, just pointing out that it is important to go back to the source rather than just reply on how it is reported.

14 minutes ago, iNow said:

So, now in addition to the additional security Fauci has needed to protect his lift from these idiots due to being good at his job, the character assassination and painting him as public enemy number one is about to get much louder and more intense.

No doubt many people will take it as a further justification for attacks on Fauci etc

Some of the responses to the tweet are just surreal. Like claims that: the reason that hydroxychloroquine is not being made available as a miracle cure is because the "deep state" wants to kill as many people as possible. Riiiight

[iNow]

It was the FireFauci hashtag included in the original tweet he shared that was problematic. The defense was IMO aimed at Fauci's comment that had we acted sooner we'd be better off... The FakeNews part is that Fauci is lying... that we acted as soon as physically possible (a claim Navarro from his team repeated last night on 60 Minutes)... which is nonsense

 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/personal-protective-equipment-ppe-doctors-nurses-short-supply-60-minutes-2020-04-12/

Quote

Peter Navarro: No apologies here from this administration. We are, we are doing better and more than any other president could've done. 

Bill Whitaker: Sir, this is the best you can?

Peter Navarro: You say, "This is the best you can?" It's, like, oh, somebody coulda done better. Really? Who coulda done better on this? I mean, really, think about this.

 

[Strange]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

It was the FireFauci hashtag included in the original tweet he shared that was problematic. The defense was IMO aimed at Fauci's comment that had we acted sooner we'd be better off... The FakeNews part is that Fauci is lying... that we acted as soon as physically possible (a claim Navarro from his team repeated last night on 60 Minutes)... which is nonsense

OK. I didn't (and don't) read it that way. But it is a valid interpretation. I'm certainly not going to expend any more pixels defending His Trumpishness 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Strange
Removed a jokey bit that could be taken the wrong way

[zapatos]

On 4/10/2020 at 5:01 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

The trend should be toward taking your President with a bucket of salt, and not exaggerating the importance of his medical advice. 

 

Or is all that just unfathomable to those that dislike him?

We do take him with a bucket of salt, and suggesting that we are cognitively challenged simply because we dislike him is rather insulting. With that salt though does not come acceptance of his behavior. I won't accept him lying just because that's simply 'Trump being Trump', anymore than I will accept the behavior of a murderer by saying 'well, murdering is just what he does!'

Not everyone has the ability to easily discern which words of his can be dismissed. Some people might even be motivated by his words to ingest fish tank cleaner.