Auto Battery

[Bushranger]

Driving my wife's car, I left the lights on in the parking lot...would not start.  Bought an 800 amp Jump Starter.  Car started right up.  The Jump Starter (lithium polymer) weighs about 3 lb. or less.   It states on the box that it will do 25 jumps before having to be recharged...which sounds like adapting it to an auto should be a no brainer.

That begs the question: With such advancements in battery technology, why are the current autos still being produced with lead-acid plates?  In other words, why havent car makers adopted the technology to make a 3 lb (or less) battery to current vehicles?   Please do not guess or speculate.  Please...only those who actually know need answer.

[iNow]

The capital investment doesn't lead to increased profits in this situation.

Quite simply: The cost to producers for making this happen is too high to justify the shift, and consumers aren't demanding it anyway.

Edited April 10, 2020 by iNow

[swansont]

Lead-acid batteries cost less (up-front cost)

 

[dimreepr]

Capitalist's aren't known for their moral compass, which is ironic given the source...

[Endy0816]

You can desulfinate or recycle lead acid easier.

[Bushranger]

31 minutes ago, iNow said:

The capital investment doesn't lead to increased profits in this situation.

Quite simply: The cost to producers for making this happen is too high to justify the shift, and consumers aren't demanding it anyway.

Have you sat-in on an automaker's meetings and heard that discussion in a board room...or is that a guess?

[iNow]

Yes

[Bushranger]

32 minutes ago, swansont said:

Lead-acid batteries cost less (up-front cost)

 

The cost of the lithium polymer jumper was $79.7...not much different than a new lead-acid battery.

16 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

You can desulfinate or recycle lead acid easier.

Recycling lead batteries is not not normally a factor in auto manufacturing (secondary smelters are the ones who deal with that), so why would an auto manufacturer care?

There seem to be a whole lot of guesses being offered here despite my admonition not to do so.  PLEASE! If you are not involved with management in the auto industry, please do not give unsupported (no data to back opinion), guesses...I can get those in bars.

[Endy0816]

13 minutes ago, Bushranger said:

The cost of the lithium polymer jumper was $79.7...not much different than a new lead-acid battery.

Likely has a shorter lifespan or other undesireable characteristics.

Main thing is that lead acid battery is mostly recycled material. You don't have to mine or ship as much material, keeping costs down.

[dimreepr]

17 minutes ago, Bushranger said:

There seem to be a whole lot of guesses being offered here despite my admonition not to do so.  PLEASE! If you are not involved with management in the auto industry, please do not give unsupported (no data to back opinion), guesses...I can get those in bars.

 Is that where you formulated the question?

[Curious layman]

I know you said no guesses or speculations but I think this is relevant;

Car manufacturer Jaguar had to stop production for a week a while ago due to not being able to source batteries.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7987123/Jaguar-halts-production-electric-Pace-shortage-batteries.html

27 minutes ago, Bushranger said:

PLEASE! If you are not involved with management in the auto industry

That's very specific, i don't think there are any people on this forum who work with management in the auto industry I'm afraid.

My round, What you drinking?🍺 🙂

[Endy0816]

20 minutes ago, Bushranger said:

The cost of the lithium polymer jumper was $79.7...not much different than a new lead-acid battery.

Recycling lead batteries is not not normally a factor in auto manufacturing (secondary smelters are the ones who deal with that), so why would an auto manufacturer care?

Provide the specs or name of the jumper. Not giving enough info to fully compare.

The manufacturers save money buying the cheaper nigh endlessly recycled batteries. Most lithium car batteries are roughly $100 more. Now multiply that per car sold...

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Bushranger said:

The cost of the lithium polymer jumper was $79.7...not much different than a new lead-acid battery.

Same specs? i.e. it’s a drop-in replacement?

[Bushranger]

It may be notable in regard to auto batteries and in case you did not already know, the last primary smelter (ore to finsished metal), was closed in the U.S. a couple of years ago.  Any virgin lead for car batteries will have to be shipped into the U.S. from countries that still have primary smelters operating, which will logically increase the cost of lead-acid batteries.  It would seem that it would make sense for auto manufacturers to develop alternatives (lithium polymer?) to those batteries at this time.   

The only lead in the U.S. now in the supply chain will soon be from lead recovered from existing sources such as sewer pipes, nuclear medicine, worn-out batteries.  However, I have learned as a lead bullet caster, the competition from entities like containers for nuclear medicine has caused competition and pushed the price of lead up along with making the supply chain for existing lead into a closed loop.  At one time we casters could get lead nuclear medicine virtually free, but nowadays hospitals are required to return the containers to the manufacture.  Also, many salvage yards will no longer sell lead but ship it back to secondary smelters.  I have seen the price of salvage lead go from .30 a lb. to 1.00 a lb.(if one can find it) in just a few short years.  So, the increasing scarcity of lead should logically be the impetus for a change in car batteries, but courusly seems to have not.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

 

 

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Same specs? i.e. it’s a drop-in replacement?

Of course not...but even not being an engineer, I could engineer an alternative...with the state of development of the lithium polymer batteries, it seems to be a no brainer.

[swansont]

6 minutes ago, Bushranger said:

Of course not...but even not being an engineer, I could engineer an alternative...with the state of development of the lithium polymer batteries, it seems to be a no brainer.

Go for it. 

[Bushranger]

2 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Provide the specs or name of the jumper. Not giving enough info to fully compare.

The manufacturers save money buying the cheaper nigh endlessly recycled batteries. Most lithium car batteries are roughly $100 more. Now multiply that per car sold...

My model is a Schumacher SL 1315 (750-1000 peak amps), cost $79.74 from Walmart.  However, they have many more similar and more expensive products:

https://www.batterychargers.com/en/products/jump-starters

[Ghideon]

3 hours ago, Bushranger said:

Have you sat-in on an automaker's meetings and heard that discussion in a board room...or is that a guess?

No. So you may sort the following comment in a category of your liking.

Lead acid batteries have better performance in cold weather. I have not found enough sources for CCA or low temperature performance to provide automotive specific references. How is the performance of Schumacher SL 1315 if the device is left in -20 degrees Celsius for a day or two?

Side note: The 2010 Porsche 911 had an option for lithium-ion but that car doesn't seem to be intended for regular use in winter conditions.

https://jalopnik.com/2010-porsche-911-gt3-rs-track-ready-street-legal-and-5340633

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Ghideon
spelling

[Carrock]

4 hours ago, Bushranger said:

Bought an 800 amp Jump Starter.

Really?

The only relevantly rated high spec starter lead-acid car battery I've seen was 40AH 160 amp crank current for 2 minutes at -20deg C i.e. about about 5AH before the battery needs to depolarise and cool; before another 2minutes of cranking.

Your jump starter is 8AH; the 800 amp crank current is not needed here but makes the battery sound better.

X-posted with Ghideon.

 

[Danijel Gorupec]

Hmm... which of the mentioned reasons explain why Li-Ion powered electric vehicles also often have 12V lead-acid accessories battery?

[Ghideon]

19 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

Hmm... which of the mentioned reasons explain why Li-Ion powered electric vehicles also often have 12V lead-acid accessories battery?

Cost. Most auxiliary equipment in cars are (still) designed for 12V. And an additional 12V lead-acid is cheaper than alernatives. Alternatives are for instance custom components or a system to route electricity from the Li-ion batteries to accessories that needs power when car is not (actively) used.

[Casio]

4 hours ago, Bushranger said:

The cost of the lithium polymer jumper was $79.7...not much different than a new lead-acid battery.

 

Multiply that figure by millions of vehicles produced and replacements when required. I think you be surprised that a big difference will be seen in costs to the manufacturer.   

[Danijel Gorupec]

39 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Cost. Most auxiliary equipment in cars are (still) designed for 12V. And an additional 12V lead-acid is cheaper than alernatives. Alternatives are for instance custom components or a system to route electricity from the Li-ion batteries to accessories that needs power when car is not (actively) used.

I understand that even 12V battery must be recharged. I understand that in Tesla Model 3, it is recharged from the main battery. So there is recharging equipment in the car - it routes electricity from Li-ion to the lead-acid battery... The 12V battery can help to supply peak amps, but I am surprised that it is still more cost effective to have the battery than to simply increase the rating of DC-DC converter that charges it.

[Strange]

12 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

I understand that even 12V battery must be recharged. I understand that in Tesla Model 3, it is recharged from the main battery. So there is recharging equipment in the car - it routes electricity from Li-ion to the lead-acid battery... The 12V battery can help to supply peak amps, but I am surprised that it is still more cost effective to have the battery than to simply increase the rating of DC-DC converter that charges it.

Battery management of the powertrain batteries in electric cars is already very complex it may be that it is simpler to allow for trickle charging an external battery rather than have to account for extra, more variable loads. (Just guessing.)

6 hours ago, Bushranger said:

That begs the question: With such advancements in battery technology, why are the current autos still being produced with lead-acid plates? 

Just guessing or speculating here (after all, the OP posted on a general science forum, rather than a specialist battery technology forum) but I think that lead-acid batteries cope better with repeated discharge and charging cycles, in particular where there is only partial discharge. The control of charging is also much simpler, because there is a more direct relationship between voltage and charge level (related to internal resistance, maybe?) They are also less prone to explode if damaged or short-circuited.