The end of modern civilization is near?

[Prometheus]

Frankly, i'm very annoyed you made waste my time clicking that link. Regression to the mean is a PC concept, indeed.

Taking this 'immigration destroys everything' stance to assessing the evidence is as useful as taking an 'immigration brings nothing but benefits' stance. It's a real shame because immigration is an important topic for many people, as shown by various referenda around the world.

[Moreno]

Just now, Strange said:

Racist quotes racist for support. What a surprise.

I do not claim I have proves that their claims are true. How do you know they are racist? I found their site accidentally and don't know they support some racist views. It seems dedicated to science mostly. But I meat this info in various sources that average German IQ have declined from 102 to 99-98 scores. Do you believe that all this IQ tests in different countries are conducted by racists only and they falsify the result to support their racist agenda?

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Moreno said:

How do you know they are racist?

The content of the article. And tThe bit where he says “I am a racist” and links to another of his racist articles. Small clues, I know, easy to miss. 

1 hour ago, Moreno said:

But I meat this info in various sources that average German IQ have declined from 102 to 99-98 scores.

What sources? (notice how that blog post didn’t give any? Another clue there.)

And, even if true, what evidence do you have for your racist views of the cause?

1 hour ago, Moreno said:

Do you believe that all this IQ tests in different countries are conducted by racists only and they falsify the result to support their racist agenda?

Oh look. Another straw man. Well done. Are you aiming to get one in every post?

[Moreno]

58 minutes ago, Strange said:

What sources?

For example: Croatian researcher Vinko Buj. 1981 "Average IQ scores of various European nations". https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Average-IQ-values-in-various-European-countries-Buj/5872cc6c0570a4dab3b026e161f9d6410dc7c1f2

Average IQ values in various European countries

Richard Lynn. 2006 "IQ and the wealth of nations".

http://www.amerika.org/politics/iq-and-the-wealth-of-nations/

Note an average IQ for Hamburg 109 in 1981 and average 102 for entire Germany in 2006. And newer estimates at 98 in 2020!

 

I don't insist it does have any relation to race and racism. I would be satisfied if we talk in the terms of just different civilizations, such as agrarian, Industrial and postindustrial. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Moreno

[dimreepr]

The end of modern civilisation is always nigh, the frog kings of old, is ozymandias...

[MigL]

Aha !
France is at the bottom of your first list.

I wonder how the results would change if the IQ test included more questions regarding wines and cheeses ?
( instead of beer, tulips, and schnitzel )

 

PS   Can we have this discussion without resorting to name calling ( racist ), but simply pointing out erroneous thinking ?

Edited May 5, 2020 by MigL

[Moreno]

Quote

Angela Merkel: German multiculturalism has 'utterly failed'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

[StringJunky]

18 minutes ago, Moreno said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

That article is nine years old and her actions later clearly contradict that stance.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

The thread is not about IQ levels. I don’t really know what is about (“end of modern civilization” is never explained), but IQ is a tangent.

Moreno, you need to frame the discussion better. Your vague post was followed by unsupported claims regarding immigration, and then straw men in responses to others’ posts. Unacceptable 

 

 

[Moreno]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

That article is nine years old and her actions later clearly contradict that stance.

How exactly?

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, Moreno said:

How exactly?

Did she not open the German borders to hundreds of thousands?

Edited May 5, 2020 by StringJunky

[Moreno]

16 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Did she not open the German borders to hundreds of thousands?

Do you know the real reasons of her actions? Maybe there is something behind the scene and this is some dirty political games? Maybe she and some other country leaders are pressed by someone unknown to us?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Moreno

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, Moreno said:

Do you know the real reasons of her actions? Maybe there is something behind the scene and this is some dirty political games? Maybe she and some other country leaders are pressed by someone unknown to us.

How about it might be pragmatism and humanitarianism rising above ideology?

[Sensei]

Angela "opened borders" to help southern European countries to solve problem of illegal immigration, taking part of the ones that arrived to Italy and Greece and other countries. It was movement of solidarity with involved European countries. Flood of migrants, who don't know language, don't have work, don't have money, can disrupt any country, and nationalists or other populist parties can win the next election, promising people fight with immigrants, which won't do any good..

 

The situation of refugees is even worse in the Middle East. For example Jordan has 10.4 million citizens and 1.3 million refugees from Syria.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Sensei

[Moreno]

15 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

How about it might be pragmatism and humanitarianism rising above ideology?

I don't know. For a some strange reasons this humanitarianism do not apply to people with predominantly European origins. For example 95%-99% of people from Ukraine who were running from war in their country were rejected entry to Germany. 

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4463192

 

 

[CharonY]

While it was not undisputed a number of countries considered Ukraine as a safe country and in Germany there was a push from the conservative wings to do the same. Meanwhile there is significant migration from the Ukraine to EU member states, especially Poland (under a work visa). Significantly more than refugee status folks from Syria who arrived in Germany during the same time frame and the single largest group in 2017.

So what is your reasoning then? 

[Phi for All]

19 minutes ago, Moreno said:

I don't know. For a some strange reasons this humanitarianism do not apply to people with predominantly European origins. For example 95%-99% of people from Ukraine who were running from war in their country were rejected entry to Germany. 

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4463192

If you'd bothered to read the article instead of just the discussion about the article, you'd see that Germany's policy has more to do with the stability of the migrant country as a whole rather than what their ethnicity is. Ukraine is a big place, and only parts were in turmoil, so they had more of an ability to relocate their own. Other countries were far more war-torn, and so they got a bigger percentage of their people relocated. 

I suggest, from the evidence, that you gravitate towards some very slanted information sources where regressive tendencies are actively preached in an atmosphere of fear and suspicion. The quality of the data on which you choose to base the information you disseminate is poor, and by definition is going to produce some stilted, biased, and fundamentally flawed conclusions. You should insist on better quality, considering the abundance of reasoned, critically thought-out perspectives available to those willing to do more than dredge up the muck when they dig for answers.

[StringJunky]

14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

If you'd bothered to read the article instead of just the discussion about the article, you'd see that Germany's policy has more to do with the stability of the migrant country as a whole rather than what their ethnicity is. Ukraine is a big place, and only parts were in turmoil, so they had more of an ability to relocate their own. Other countries were far more war-torn, and so they got a bigger percentage of their people relocated. 

I suggest, from the evidence, that you gravitate towards some very slanted information sources where regressive tendencies are actively preached in an atmosphere of fear and suspicion. The quality of the data on which you choose to base the information you disseminate is poor, and by definition is going to produce some stilted, biased, and fundamentally flawed conclusions. You should insist on better quality, considering the abundance of reasoned, critically thought-out perspectives available to those willing to do more than dredge up the muck when they dig for answers.

I think it's the difference, when embarking on research, between working from an assertion and working from a question. In the former, one will likely seek data that confirms ones assertion, with all the confirmation bias that makes one vulnerable to. When one researches from a questioning perspective, one is more likely to consider all the data, and see how that goes... with no preconceptions. An example might be: "All swans are white" vs  "Are all swans white?".

Edited May 5, 2020 by StringJunky

[Moreno]

38 minutes ago, CharonY said:

While it was not undisputed a number of countries considered Ukraine as a safe country

Impoverished country with millions (!) of refugees, with many thousands of people who lost their houses, jobs and anything they had is a "safe" country? Wake up, there is no free lunch in Ukraine for refugees and neither free comfortable houses, jobs, or money. And closest distance from Ukraine to Germany is just 850 km. Poland refused to accept a lot of refugees from Ukraine and neither provide those few they've accepted with any comfortable means of living. 

Quote

significant migration from the Ukraine to EU member states, especially Poland (under a work visa).

Majority of these migrants work 12 hours a day without weekends on heaviest and dirtiest works and earn much less than Poles. Working visa doesn't mean permanent residence and their rights are no more than rights of a temporary workers in Japan or Saudi Ar-a.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Moreno

[CharonY]

So you are essentially saying that Germany and the rest of the EU should welcome more asylum applications?

[Moreno]

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

So you are essentially saying that Germany and the rest of the EU should welcome more asylum applications?

Not necessarily. I just pointed out to a strange selectivity of the refugees. I've read a few more stories about European police who treated refugees from Eastern Europe harshly while in the same time emphasized their politeness to refugees from Africa.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Moreno

[CharonY]

So you think that Ukraine is in a similar shape as Ukraine at that point? Can you substantiate that claim as well as those regarding perceived selectivity? How about some numbers?

[Moreno]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

So you think that Ukraine is in a similar shape as Ukraine at that point? 

I didn't understand these question.

[CharonY]

Sorry, exchange one Ukraine with Syria.

[Moreno]

Now, I do not know. I don't live in either. Why situation in Ukraine suppose to be not better than in Syria to accept refugees from there? Is Syria a litmus test? Both countries are difficult to compare. Ukraine is much colder. Both are poor.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Moreno