Apologies and Grievances

[joigus]

I don't know if this is necessary, or of any use. I will just have to wait and see.

My apologies go specially to Mordred and Markus Hanke, because they know far more than I do about GR, and they've let me play smarty-pants on their turf for a while. My fine instinct tells me I may've p*ssed them off.

In case there were any hard feelings (although as I'm writing these lines I've found out that's not the case with Mordred at least) I was just checking both my own knowledge and theirs. If you check your knowledge or solid reason against wise people, you're on your way to understanding more and better.

My grievances go to all those people (some OP's and their sock-puppet duplicates or echo chambers who shall remain unnamed) who make me waste time in checking, double-checking and cross-checking and cross-referencing about their silly assumptions or implications, sometimes getting me in more trouble than need be. I don't completely consider that time totally invaluable though as soon as the likes of Mordred and Hanke make an appearance.

[zapatos]

If Mordred or Markus have EVER gotten pissed off in a thread on this site they sure do keep it under their hats. They never seem to react to any comments as if they are anything other than honest discussion or honest misunderstanding.

[joigus]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

If Mordred or Markus have EVER gotten pissed off in a thread on this site they sure do keep it under their hats. They never seem to react to any comments as if they are anything other than honest discussion or honest misunderstanding.

It's good to know. It's just that on places like this you're never sure if you're rubbing a person the wrong way.

[MigL]

I know Markus from another forum we belonged to before this one.
And I've gotten to know Mordred fairly well.
Both are extremely professional in the way they pass on knowledge without judgement.
I have learned a lot from both, and hope to learn much more.

Neither seems to participate much in forums like Politics, Religion, Ethics, etc., where opinions matter a lot, and tempers can flare; although it would be nice to hear their opinions on some matters.    

I don't think you need to worry about either of them getting 'pi*sed-off'.
Watch out for that Zapatos guy though, He's American, and has guns   .                                                                     

[Mordred]

I have never seen any reason for an apology from any of your posts.

 In point of detail I recognize your skill as a check to ensure I am accurate in my responses to other forum members and fully welcome any corrections or instances where clarification is needed.

 You need not worry if you find yourself at odds with any of my posts. This is a discussion forum and all viable opinions are welcome.

Ps to all the kudos from yourself and  others I am thankful. I am also positive you have knowledge of certain physics disciplines that exceed my own or Markus. The field of physics is a huge topic in applications.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Mordred

[Markus Hanke]

16 hours ago, joigus said:

My apologies go specially to Mordred and Markus Hanke, because they know far more than I do about GR, and they've let me play smarty-pants on their turf for a while. My fine instinct tells me I may've p*ssed them off.

I am unsure why you would think that - you have never upset me in the slightest with anything you have said, so no apology is necessary at all.
But just to set the record straight anyway: it is highly unlikely that I know more about GR than you do I am merely an interested amateur, and everything I post here - without exception - is entirely self-taught. Unlike Mordred, I have no academic credentials in any area of science; truth be told, I never even went to university at all. My understanding of GR and physics in general is cobbled together from a variety of textbooks over the years. I am on the autism spectrum, and one of the defining characteristics of people on the spectrum is that we tend to get totally absorbed by narrow areas of interest (this is called monotropism) - for me that just happened to be physics, specifically GR, at least in the beginning; so I did a lot of reading and self-study in that area. In recent years my interests have diversified somewhat, and I also got involved with certain areas of philosophy and spirituality. Also, understanding GR is natural and intuitive to me, in a way that does not seem to be the case for most neurotypical people; perhaps people on the spectrum find it easier to step outside established paradigms (in this case Newtonian physics) and look at things from a different angle. We tend to have difficulties with other aspects of life, though.

10 hours ago, MigL said:

Neither seems to participate much in forums like Politics, Religion, Ethics, etc., where opinions matter a lot, and tempers can flare; although it would be nice to hear their opinions on some matters. 

I can only speak for myself here. I have no interest whatsoever in anything to do with politics; I stay as far away from it as I can. Anytime in the past when I needed to get involved in politics (workplace, family, etc) it ended badly for me in some way or another. The main reason would be that, as being on the autism spectrum, I am unable to read social cues and guess at peoples’ social intentions. Social interactions between neurotypical people are a complete mystery to me, I cannot understand them. I function reasonably well in daily life, but that is only because I have learned to mask a lot; it’s not the same thing. To me, politics is a bunch of people with strong opinions, who do not recognise them as being opinions, and mistake them for some kind of reality. So they get terribly agitated when others don’t share them; there is a lot of suffering it it, really, and no one seems to even see that. I have plenty of views and opinions as well, but I tend to be able to recognise them as such (or so I hope), and see how they are changing with time, so I don’t try to push them on other people. They are just constructs of my mind, so ultimately they say more about my mind than they do about the world at large.

As for religion and ethics, they are areas of interest to me - but I personally don’t see them as something to be debated or discussed on social media, which is why I don’t participate in those threads. Religion - or rather: spirituality - in particular is something you do, not just some passive view on the world. I see lots of people who call themselves “Christian” or “Muslim” or “Buddhist”, but these are just labels - those same people may speak and act in ways that reveal complete ignorance of the nature of human suffering. And conversely, some of those people I have met who were most at peace with themselves and the world did not label themselves in any way; they just lived a truth that existed within them on a visceral, intuitive level. So religion and spirituality are never external things, they come from the inside; they are lived, not debated. That’s all I can really share with regards to this.

Ethics, to me, is the art of finding the path of least suffering, for myself and everyone else who is involved, in any given situation. There is no such thing as “right” or “wrong”, there is only cause and effect. One can write down general principles for this that may hold true in most cultural backgrounds, but ultimately it is again something intuitive and visceral, something that happens inside. Intention has a lot to do with it - if we act from a place that understands the suffering inherent in all sentient life, and consciously choose to act in ways that minimises it to the best of our limited abilities, then the seeds of our actions will generally be wholesome ones.

15 hours ago, zapatos said:

If Mordred or Markus have EVER gotten pissed off in a thread on this site they sure do keep it under their hats. They never seem to react to any comments as if they are anything other than honest discussion or honest misunderstanding.

Again, I think it has a lot to do with one’s reasons for being here. I am on this forum for two reasons only - to expand my own knowledge and understanding, and to help others do the same; and very often, these two things are mutually co-dependent, and happen simultaneously. It is no longer about getting anyone else to adopt my own views on things. Ultimately you cannot force someone to understand something; you can only offer them the tools that might enable them to put the causes and conditions in place for such understanding to arise eventually. But different people come from different backgrounds, and they are at different stages of their own journeys when they arrive here on this forum; it does happen that someone just isn’t ready to listen, and then it won’t matter what you say to them, regardless of how rational and scientific it is. They will be unable to see the merit in it. It’s not even their “fault” really, it’s just that the conditions are not right yet for understanding to arise. Getting upset or offended will never help in these situations - most often it is best to simply disengage and walk away. After all, it is their journey, so I don’t need to loose my own balance over it.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Markus Hanke

[studiot]

51 minutes ago, Markus Hanke said:

To me, politics is a bunch of people with strong opinions, who do not recognise them as being opinions, and mistake them for some kind of reality.

Thank you Marcus for opening yourself up and producing your best post ever. +1

It contains so many well put points I have just picked one out to create a forum quote.

[joigus]

10 hours ago, MigL said:

Watch out for that Zapatos guy though, He's American, and has guns   . 

LOL. I'll watch my step.

9 hours ago, Mordred said:

You need not worry if you find yourself at odds with any of my posts. This is a discussion forum and all viable opinions are welcome.

(my emphasis)

Thank you. Maybe some day I'll ask you some questions once I've given them a good deal of thought.

59 minutes ago, Markus Hanke said:

But just to set the record straight anyway: it is highly unlikely that I know more about GR than you do I am merely an interested amateur, and everything I post here - without exception - is entirely self-taught.

Well, you're one of the most impressive amateurs I've ever crossed paths with. I suppose James Hutton was an amateur as you. Get ready for some questions too. Not only about GR.

9 minutes ago, studiot said:

Thank you Marcus for opening yourself up and producing your best post ever. +1

It contains so many well put points I have just picked one out to create a forum quote.

And I agree. I've just run out of points for Markus and you. None of you is here for the points, though.

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

I am unsure why you would think that - you have never upset me in the slightest with anything you have said, so no apology is necessary at all.
But just to set the record straight anyway: it is highly unlikely that I know more about GR than you do I am merely an interested amateur, and everything I post here - without exception - is entirely self-taught. Unlike Mordred, I have no academic credentials in any area of science; truth be told, I never even went to university at all. My understanding of GR and physics in general is cobbled together from a variety of textbooks over the years. I am on the autism spectrum, and one of the defining characteristics of people on the spectrum is that we tend to get totally absorbed by narrow areas of interest (this is called monotropism) - for me that just happened to be physics, specifically GR, at least in the beginning; so I did a lot of reading and self-study in that area. In recent years my interests have diversified somewhat, and I also got involved with certain areas of philosophy and spirituality. Also, understanding GR is natural and intuitive to me, in a way that does not seem to be the case for most neurotypical people; perhaps people on the spectrum find it easier to step outside established paradigms (in this case Newtonian physics) and look at things from a different angle. We tend to have difficulties with other aspects of life, though.

I can only speak for myself here. I have no interest whatsoever in anything to do with politics; I stay as far away from it as I can. Anytime in the past when I needed to get involved in politics (workplace, family, etc) it ended badly for me in some way or another. The main reason would be that, as being on the autism spectrum, I am unable to read social cues and guess at peoples’ social intentions. Social interactions between neurotypical people are a complete mystery to me, I cannot understand them. I function reasonably well in daily life, but that is only because I have learned to mask a lot; it’s not the same thing. To me, politics is a bunch of people with strong opinions, who do not recognise them as being opinions, and mistake them for some kind of reality. So they get terribly agitated when others don’t share them; there is a lot of suffering it it, really, and no one seems to even see that. I have plenty of views and opinions as well, but I tend to be able to recognise them as such (or so I hope), and see how they are changing with time, so I don’t try to push them on other people. They are just constructs of my mind, so ultimately they say more about my mind than they do about the world at large.

As for religion and ethics, they are areas of interest to me - but I personally don’t see them as something to be debated or discussed on social media, which is why I don’t participate in those threads. Religion - or rather: spirituality - in particular is something you do, not just some passive view on the world. I see lots of people who call themselves “Christian” or “Muslim” or “Buddhist”, but these are just labels - those same people may speak and act in ways that reveal complete ignorance of the nature of human suffering. And conversely, some of those people I have met who were most at peace with themselves and the world did not label themselves in any way; they just lived a truth that existed within them on a visceral, intuitive level. So religion and spirituality are never external things, they come from the inside; they are lived, not debated. That’s all I can really share with regards to this.

Ethics, to me, is the art of finding the path of least suffering, for myself and everyone else who is involved, in any given situation. There is no such thing as “right” or “wrong”, there is only cause and effect. One can write down general principles for this that may hold true in most cultural backgrounds, but ultimately it is again something intuitive and visceral, something that happens inside. Intention has a lot to do with it - if we act from a place that understands the suffering inherent in all sentient life, and consciously choose to act in ways that minimises it to the best of our limited abilities, then the seeds of our actions will generally be wholesome ones.

Again, I think it has a lot to do with one’s reasons for being here. I am on this forum for two reasons only - to expand my own knowledge and understanding, and to help others do the same; and very often, these two things are mutually co-dependent, and happen simultaneously. It is no longer about getting anyone else to adopt my own views on things. Ultimately you cannot force someone to understand something; you can only offer them the tools that might enable them to put the causes and conditions in place for such understanding to arise eventually. But different people come from different backgrounds, and they are at different stages of their own journeys when they arrive here on this forum; it does happen that someone just isn’t ready to listen, and then it won’t matter what you say to them, regardless of how rational and scientific it is. They will be unable to see the merit in it. It’s not even their “fault” really, it’s just that the conditions are not right yet for understanding to arise. Getting upset or offended will never help in these situations - most often it is best to simply disengage and walk away. After all, it is their journey, so I don’t need to loose my own balance over it.

Nice post +1

You're a lucky guy, most neurotypical people don't know themselves that well.

[Eise]

22 hours ago, joigus said:

My apologies go specially to Mordred and Markus Hanke, because they know far more than I do about GR, and they've let me play smarty-pants on their turf for a while. My fine instinct tells me I may've p*ssed them off.

As I've already read, I am happy to see your intuition was wrong. I did not expect otherwise. For me you are an enrichment of the forum: I pretty soon found out that you know what you are talking about. One voice more against crackpotism. So happy that you are here. And hopefully you also will be able to lift some corners of the veil of general relativity. Pity enough the mathematics of GR is just above my head. Thanks to Markus' website, this forum, and a few other sources, I have a little idea about what tensors are, but that's it..

Which brings me to Markus: this is incredible! You learned GR in self study? Oh my, this makes me jealous. An 'interested amateur'? I felt pretty sure you had studied physics at a university, but self study? A serious gasho from me. (And, btw, for one year (1998/9) I lived in Galway, and started Zen meditation there. So MigL, I gave you a clue what 'gasho' means...).

But one warning for joigus: 'free will' and GR are different topics... But glad you are here. So Markus, Janus, and Mordred sometimes can take a day off. You'll manage the crackpots.

 

[joigus]

8 minutes ago, Eise said:

As I've already read, I am happy to see your intuition was wrong. I did not expect otherwise. For me you are an enrichment of the forum: I pretty soon found out that you know what you are talking about. One voice more against crackpotism. So happy that you are here. And hopefully you also will be able to lift some corners of the veil of general relativity. Pity enough the mathematics of GR is just above my head. Thanks to Markus' website, this forum, and a few other sources, I have a little idea about what tensors are, but that's it..

Only people who feel really involved with higher levels of certainty can be happy that their intuition is wrong sometimes. And I'm happy too about what you say, yes. But if you won't check, you will never know. Also, only people who feel really involved with higher levels of certainty can be sad that their intuition is right sometimes. Wishful thinking is only too common. Thank you for your words. And as crackpotism is rampant and a danger for the well-being of the human kind, you will always find me there.

[Mordred]

 So this details a question.

 When does one consider another a crackpot ?

 Not an easy term to define, the best estimate I have ever come up with is a poster who refuses to accept any counter evidence against his own views.

 It is understandable a poster would not be current with modern research. Just as it is the lack of mathematics ( takes a certain degree of desire to predictive desire).

 My experience has been a lack of desire to accept counter arguments.

(Once you assign a label you have closed the book) surprisingly that expression oft applies to OP and commenter.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Mordred

[MigL]

I  was only kidding about wanting your opinion Markus.
You didn't have to dump 50 lines of text on us !

No seriously. your openness/ candor are appreciated as much as your scientific insights  .
Thank you.

[Mordred]

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

I  was only kidding about wanting your opinion Markus.
You didn't have to dump 50 lines of text on us !

 

As opposed to 50 lines of mathematics lol.

( I recently came across an SM Langrangian that was three pages long...) Would take me several days to latex lmao.

Speaking of cross checks a few times Markus caught me on mixing the metric tensor with the Einstein tensor...

Edited May 25, 2020 by Mordred

[joigus]

6 hours ago, Mordred said:

When does one consider another a crackpot ?

 Not an easy term to define, the best estimate I have ever come up with is a poster who refuses to accept any counter evidence against his own views.

Maybe this concept is better filled inductively. For many people who end up defined as crackpots their self-assuredness is inversely proportional to their knowledge of the subject. That would be the crackpot's second law.  

5 hours ago, MigL said:

I  was only kidding about wanting your opinion Markus.
You didn't have to dump 50 lines of text on us !

LOL

4 hours ago, Mordred said:

Speaking of cross checks a few times Markus caught me on mixing the metric tensor with the Einstein tensor...

Honest mistake. They're both "g"'s

 

[joigus]

On the department of grievances, by the way: This Roman-numerals person who dropped by yesterday with an ill-posed question about energy and atoms, didn't find any of the answers satisfactory, insulted everybody, declared this site as a very, very, very bad site, and has been sniffing around the site for 24 hours non-stop. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by joigus
minor stylistic correction

[studiot]

9 hours ago, Mordred said:

When does one consider another a crackpot ?

Crackpots can be clever or foolish, but in my book they are genuine in that the honestly have faith in their work or belief. They may be blinded to other views by their obsession, but they are not being deliberately obtuse.

However there are those, who can be quite clever and knowledgeable, who say things or omit them, just to be provocative, sometimes to the point of trolling with some hidden agenda.
It is usually difficult to distinguish these. We seem to get them every so often.

[Markus Hanke]

22 hours ago, Eise said:

You learned GR in self study?

Indeed! I learned all of my physics and maths that go beyond secondary school level in self-study. 

14 hours ago, MigL said:

You didn't have to dump 50 lines of text on us !

I felt like it at the time, so no sweat  

13 hours ago, Mordred said:

As opposed to 50 lines of mathematics lol.

I could do that too  I once, just for fun, fully wrote down all of the Einstein equations explicitly without using summation convention - i.e. all the terms involving Christoffel symbols fully written out, without summation over any indices. I can‘t remember how many handwritten pages it took, but it was a huge mess  Now image doing that with LaTeX...

[Mordred]

Lol I often come across equations that are so fustrating to latex it takes me several hours. So I can well imagine.