True vacuum

[John Cuthber]

7 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

No one listens to what I type about what im doing and some tend to simply pretend that im not doing this in speculations. So I would but moving matter without touching it is what im describing it as and I wanted to do it in a vacuum as far as I can with what resources I have. What I want to know is how much does it really in space or anywhere matter that one inch. only because my setup wont pull that on my guage and if I need to upgrade it would be because that one inch difference has more importance then lets say 15 to 30.  

If the atmospheric pressure is the so called "standard" of 760 mmHg it is impossible to get 30 inches of vacuum.

[XVV]

58 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

whats your deal? I only asked a question and you act like your under attack. You dont need to know anything about what im doing. I asked what is the real difference not what do you think of my setup. I get that my gauges are relative to the atmosphere and I dont need to admit anything. Get over yourself. all you have been is insulting. I dont need your help in understanding because all you want to do is pretend to know more then me. 

Sorry the type of gauge im using is an ac system gauges. Im guessing that its not true vacuum and I would need an absolute gauge or something like that or is the vacuum read on a gauge relative no matter what? maybe im not good at asking the right questions. like I said not a scientist.

Yeah, I am new to this website. This website is administrated by some clowns who think they are 'out of the world' or something by saying some stupid jokes that they think of as insults . I have asked some questions but there were more stupid insults and jokes than answers. I support you on this topic. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by XVV

[Theredbarron]

3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

If the atmospheric pressure is the so called "standard" of 760 mmHg it is impossible to get 30 inches of vacuum.

So pretty much not going to get to 30 with standard equipment? or would digital be any benefit like sensors versus mechanical even if im not making it to 30?

[Sensei]

19 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

So pretty much not going to get to 30 with standard equipment? or would digital be any benefit like sensors versus mechanical even if im not making it to 30?

The closer you are to -30 the better vacuum. I gave you two options to get closer to -30 in the first post in this thread: use double vacuum pumps in series, and use metal and Oxygen technique..

The closer you are to -30 on scale, the less gas you have inside of container, the smaller amount of molecules, with the smaller mass.

With cheap analog vacuum gauge you have no idea whether it is -29.1 or -29.5 or -29.7..

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Sensei

[Strange]

44 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

How much does it matter from 29 to 30 in reality not in my chamber? so the context would be space since thats where most the vacuum is! How much in relation to that does that 1 inch specifically from 29 to 30 hg (hg because thats what im used to).

You are very unlikely to be able to recreate the same level of vacuum as space without some very sophisticated equipment. And a far more accurate pressure gauge.

44 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

Good thing thats not my question so my setup is irrelevant.

If you want to achieve that level of vacuum, your set up is very relevant. 

Quote

Yes to the first but more about the feature that I want to add and if i need 30 inches for an important reason or not. 

If you have acheived -29 in Hg, then this is about 10¹² (one thousand billion) times higher pressure than the surface of the moon. Which is, in turn, about 1,000 time higher than the pressure of deep space. You have some way to go.

I'm still not clear why you need to achieve this level of vacuum though.

If you think you are generating some sort of force, then why not just put a barrier in the way to block air movement? (I think I might have suggested this when you discussed this before.)

The other thing to do is try objects of different shape and material. For example, if you are generating a force (similar to gravity) then it will work equally on two objects of the same mass. Whereas air movement will vary depending on the shape. So you could make several pieces of the same size (and hence the same mass) and then leave some of them flat and roll some into tight balls. Air movement will affect the flat pieces more than the others. A force similar to gravity will operate on both equally. So if they both move the same way it tells you one thing, and if they both behave differently, then that tells you something else.

 

23 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

So pretty much not going to get to 30 with standard equipment? or would digital be any benefit like sensors versus mechanical even if im not making it to 30?

No. And you need to switch to measuring the pressure with the right equipment and the right units. You need an absolute pressure gauge. And you need to be able to measure down to at least 10^-9 Torr. (I think you may be down to about 25 Torr, at best).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Measurement

[Theredbarron]

6 minutes ago, Strange said:

You are very unlikely to be able to recreate the same level of vacuum as space without some very sophisticated equipment. And a far more accurate pressure gauge.

If you want to achieve that level of vacuum, your set up is very relevant. 

If you have acheived -29 in Hg, then this is about 10¹² (one thousand billion) times higher pressure than the surface of the moon. Which is, in turn, about 1,000 time higher than the pressure of deep space. You have some way to go.

I'm still not clear why you need to achieve this level of vacuum though.

If you think you are generating some sort of force, then why not just put a barrier in the way to block air movement? (I think I might have suggested this when you discussed this before.)

The other thing to do is try objects of different shape and material. For example, if you are generating a force (similar to gravity) then it will work equally on two objects of the same mass. Whereas air movement will vary depending on the shape. So you could make several pieces of the same size (and hence the same mass) and then leave some of them flat and roll some into tight balls. Air movement will affect the flat pieces more than the others. A force similar to gravity will operate on both equally. So if they both move the same way it tells you one thing, and if they both behave differently, then that tells you something else.

 

not relavent to my question is my setup! is that better? and im not talking about gravity. you dont even read the whole thing and then you  speak and separate what ive stated and use them out of context. I have a long road ahead of me and I dont need no strange on the way. 

10 minutes ago, Sensei said:

The closer you are to -30 the better vacuum. I gave you two options to get closer to -30 in the first post in this thread: use double vacuum pumps in series, and use metal and Oxygen technique..

The closer you are to -30 on scale, the less gas you have inside of container, the smaller amount of molecules, with the smaller mass.

With cheap analog vacuum gauge you have no idea whether it is -29.1 or -29.5 or -29.7..

 

thank you again!

I think im actually going to try both of those

[MigL]

Gases/vapors do get trapped in solid materials, like glass or metal.
The 'off-gassing', or liberation of these trapped gases/vapors can take quite a while, as small amounts are liberated very slowly.
The first 95% of the pressure drop will occur rather quick, but that last little bit could take days.
One way to speed up the off-gassing is by raising the temperature high enough to drive out moisture and the like.

[Strange]

On 5/24/2020 at 8:59 PM, Theredbarron said:

and im not talking about gravity.

Ok. But you said that you were able to move the paper. I (maybe wrongly) assumed that you wanted to remove the air to test if the paper still moved. That implies some sort of force that makes the paper move. Different forces act in different ways, so I was just discussing a force that acts in a similar way to gravity because that is a very simple model.

If I am wrong, then I can see that my suggestion to insert a barrier instead of removing the air would not be relevant. (But the reason for removing the air is part of the context that would help answer your questions.)

To give you some more specific figures on the level of vacuum you would need to achieve if you want to reproduce the conditions in space:

• Low vacuum: 760 Torr to 1 x 10^-3 Torr
  • Vacuum cleaner: to 600 Torr
  • Thermos bottle 10^-3 Torr
• High vacuum: 10^-3 to 10^-9 Torr
  • Electron microscope
  • Ion Implanter – Evaporator – Sputterer
• Ultra high vacuum: 10^-9 to 10^-12 Torr
  • CERN LHC: 1 x 10^-10 Torr
  • Moon’s surface: 1 x 10^-11 Torr
  • Deep Space 1 x 10^-17 Torr = 0.000,000,000,000,000,01 Torr

You are currently in that "low vacuum" range.

From: https://www.raclub.org/Documents/Programs/VACUUM.pdf (there is a lot of other useful information in there; looks like a pretty good tutorial)

On 5/24/2020 at 8:59 PM, Theredbarron said:

I have a long road ahead of me and I dont need no strange on the way. 

I hope you will forgive me if I keep trying to help.🙂

[Theredbarron]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Gases/vapors do get trapped in solid materials, like glass or metal.
The 'off-gassing', or liberation of these trapped gases/vapors can take quite a while, as small amounts are liberated very slowly.
The first 95% of the pressure drop will occur rather quick, but that last little bit could take days.
One way to speed up the off-gassing is by raising the temperature high enough to drive out moisture and the like.

I started to wonder this. Just like in an ac system you have to hold the vac for an amount of time to get the moisture out. Makes sense

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Ok. But you said that you were able to move the paper. I (maybe wrongly) assumed that you wanted to remove the air to test if the paper still moved. That implies some sort of force that makes the paper move. Different forces act in different ways, so I was just discussing a force that acts in a similar way to gravity because that is a very simple model.

If I am wrong, then I can see that my suggestion to insert a barrier instead of removing the air would not be relevant. (But the reason for removing the air is part of the context that would help answer your questions.)

To give you some more specific figures on the level of vacuum you would need to achieve if you want to reproduce the conditions in space:

• Low vacuum: 760 Torr to 1 x 10-3 Torr
  • Vacuum cleaner: to 600 Torr
  • Thermos bottle 10-3 Torr
• High vacuum: 10-3 to 10-9 Torr
  • Electron microscope
  • Ion Implanter – Evaporator – Sputterer
• Ultra high vacuum: 10-9 to 10-12 Torr
  • CERN LHC: 1 x 10-10 Torr
  • Moon’s surface: 1 x 10-11 Torr
  • Deep Space 1 x 10-17 Torr = 0.000,000,000,000,000,01 Torr

You are currently in that "low vacuum" range.

From: https://www.raclub.org/Documents/Programs/VACUUM.pdf (there is a lot of other useful information in there; looks like a pretty good tutorial)

I hope you will forgive me if I keep trying to help.🙂

I do have one question that you might be able to answer. Is there anything out there right now that can move a variety of matter in a vacuum without contact? The other issue with vacuum that im having is that the feature that I will install uses gasses to create its own atmosphere like conditions around the wheel in a vacuum. It will simply fill up the chamber so why even go for 30 in this case. Its more like I would have to actually take it into space which is sort of unlikely to test it. If I can get it to 30 without the feature is something im working on.

by get to I mean not only vacuum but moving something in it. 

its a mechanical replication of a planet of no specific one but the common features of them!

[MigL]

The pretreatment for high purity gas cylinders ( 99.9996 % pure ) involves baking under high vacuum for 12-24 hours.
That is one of the reasons people are asking about your experimental set-up and objectives.
 

Edited May 24, 2020 by MigL

[Sensei]

28 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

Is there anything out there right now that can move a variety of matter in a vacuum (in my container) without contact?

If you will have iron inside it, you can move it by magnet or electromagnet.

If you will have electrostatically charged pieces of something, you can move them using electrostatically charged things from outside.

 

Iron powder inside of container with liquid with magnet video that I found on YouTube:

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Sensei

[Theredbarron]

2 minutes ago, Sensei said:

If you will have iron inside it, you can move it by magnet or electromagnet.

If you will have electrostatically charged pieces of something, you can move them using electrostatically charged things from outside.

I didnt say thats all I can move. Thats just what im telling you and what you have seen in the past. rubber metal glass all move with the same wheel grounded or not. wood is in there somewhere. it depends on the size of it  because its relevant to the strength of the wheel which is also dependant on size. Dont forget air is matter and what im doing it is relevant but may or may not be the primary bases of this function. Hence why im asking about the 30 inches. From my point of view it is only relevant when in that environment or atmospheric condition. So not just simply vacuum but all densities. 

oh yeah and water but its a little hard to do that in a vacuum. Good thing space doesn't have water

[Phi for All]

50 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

not relavent to my question is my setup! is that better? and im not talking about gravity. you dont even read the whole thing and then you  speak and separate what ive stated and use them out of context. I have a long road ahead of me and I dont need no strange on the way. 

!

Moderator Note

I hope you're beginning to see how important context and clarity are. If anyone here hopes to give you a decent reply, they obviously need more than what you gave in your OP. The evidence? Look how much better the replies got when you answered some questions. 

So can we please drop the whole "You dont even read the whole thing and then you speak" bullshit? Everyone replying is trying to HELP YOU do some science, and you seem most ungrateful.

 

[Ghideon]

45 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

The other issue with vacuum that im having is that the feature that I will install uses gasses to create its own atmosphere like conditions around the wheel in a vacuum.

 

15 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

So not just simply vacuum but all densities. 

Does that imply that you first create a vacuum and then add gas? Is the outcome you expect/predict that the added gas will not be equally distributed but instead cling to the rotating wheel?   If so you may think about placement of the gauge if you have a single, or if more than one gauge is required.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting the experimental setup.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Ghideon

[Theredbarron]

2 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

 

Does that imply that you first create a vacuum and then add gas? Is the outcome you expect/predict that the added gas will not be equally distributed but instead cling to the rotating wheel?   If so you may think about placement of the gauge if you have a single, or if more than one gauge is required.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting the experimental setup.

Yes vacuum first as if its in space is the idea but not whats happening. Just as a planet does is what im expecting but if the conditions are controlled then maybe I can get it to hold but not something im going for. So would I need a pretty good sized chamber so I can get some distance from the wheel and setup a couple gauges or so? I might weld one up and place a camera in lights in it is what I was thinking on that. I

 

7 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

!

Moderator Note

I hope you're beginning to see how important context and clarity are. If anyone here hopes to give you a decent reply, they obviously need more than what you gave in your OP. The evidence? Look how much better the replies got when you answered some questions. 

So can we please drop the whole "You dont even read the whole thing and then you speak" bullshit? Everyone replying is trying to HELP YOU do some science, and you seem most ungrateful.

 

my original question is how important is the difference between 29 and 30! someone answered it and some just tried to ask about my setup. I didnt originally ask how to get to 30. I was trying to see how important getting to 30 would be not that my setup can do it or not. The same people on here doing the same thing because they dont like someone. I clearly thanked the one  gave me good info! sorry that I dont quite understand what was meant by context which I also stated. are you being just like those few and not reading and just being biased? 

I dont have to respond to people just because you state something. Re read and then tell me I wasn't trying to get info

you dont read and then spit bullshit

[Phi for All]

2 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

my original question is how important is the difference between 29 and 30! someone answered it and some just tried to ask about my setup. I didnt originally ask how to get to 30. I was trying to see how important getting to 30 would be not that my setup can do it or not. The same people on here doing the same thing because they dont like someone. I clearly thanked the one  gave me good info! sorry that I dont quite understand what was meant by context which I also stated. are you being just like those few and not reading and just being biased? 

I dont have to respond to people just because you state something. Re read and then tell me I wasn't trying to get info

you dont read and then spit bullshit

!

Moderator Note

You behave like an idiot. You see persecution in rigor. You cherry-pick what makes sense to you. You don't do science. So pretty soon, I imagine you'll break enough rules and we won't have to respond to your ungrateful crap. Have a great day!

 

[Theredbarron]

I even apologized for not being able to ask the question correctly PHil

he is going to shut it down because he cant read

8 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

!

Moderator Note

You behave like an idiot. You see persecution in rigor. You cherry-pick what makes sense to you. You don't do science. So pretty soon, I imagine you'll break enough rules and we won't have to respond to your ungrateful crap. Have a great day!

 

Why should I be grateful to you or some others here when all you do is talk crap like you know everything im doing? you cant move anything in a vacuum without contacting it with the force directly and you think you know what im doing. This is speculations correct

stop reading if you dont like it

[Strange]

15 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

my original question is how important is the difference between 29 and 30! someone answered it

So, it seems there are now two ways to go.

You could ask the mods to close this thread because that original question has been answered. (And then, later start another one when you want to discuss some otherapsect of your idea.)

Or you could keep this thread to discuss some of the other useful information that has come up - what level of vacuum you need to achieve, techniques for getting there, etc.

Up to you.

But, can I just ask again what the purpose of the vacuum is: is it just to eliminate air movement as a possible cause of the movement, or do you expect you system to work differently / better in a vacuum?

 

[Theredbarron]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

So, it seems there are now two ways to go.

You could ask the mods to close this thread because that original question has been answered. (And then, later start another one when you want to discuss some otherapsect of your idea.)

Or you could keep this thread to discuss some of the other useful information that has come up - what level of vacuum you need to achieve, techniques for getting there, etc.

Up to you.

But, can I just ask again what the purpose of the vacuum is: is it just to eliminate air movement as a possible cause of the movement, or do you expect you system to work differently / better in a vacuum?

 

you wanted context and see what happens. just because people dont understand or believe in something doesn't make it not happening. The vacuum is to attempt to get rid of air and see the effects if they still hold. I wanted to understand how important it is to get to 30. Where in space is comparable to 30 inches maybe? I got the other stuff which I am going to use but as an understanding from an observational point of view now with context I hope how important is it.  I kind of doubt some of you have any idea where im going with this and you dont need to. if I state what im doing then idiots like phil start in way out of context and say crap only to argue

I get that magnetism works in a vacuum but this is not magnetism and it only works on magnetic matter not all matter!

How about what is the lowest vacuum? Is it simply a space that is not occupied by any matter for the lowest or is it a state of density of matter or gasses that occupy the space? 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Theredbarron said:

I do have one question that you might be able to answer. Is there anything out there right now that can move a variety of matter in a vacuum without contact?

Have you explained what you mean by this? 

Contrary to your stance on this, such detail matters, as telepathy is not real

[Ghideon]

44 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

I wanted to understand how important it is to get to 30

It may or may not be important.
Hopefully that answers the question.

Analogy: If I ask you "is it important if the oil pressure changes from 60 to 70 PSI?" You might want to know if I speak about a car engine, truck engine or a top fuel dragster engine. And maybe if engine was idling, warm, cold, brand new or old. Or if there are a change in engine noise or change in exhausts. What fuel the engine runs on may make a difference etc. The point is that not only was more context needed to give a meaningful answer, the discussion could be more interesting as well. Having enough context so that those involved in the discussion can apply whatever knowledge they posses is important. Otherwise the discussion will be like:
-"Hello, how important is it to lower the oil pressure from 70 to 55 PSI?"
-"It depends"
-"Ok, thanks, bye"

 

44 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

How about what is the lowest vacuum? Is it simply a space that is not occupied by any matter for the lowest or is it a state of density of matter or gasses that occupy the space? 

I think @strange answered:

2 hours ago, Strange said:

Deep Space 1 x 10-17 Torr = 0.000,000,000,000,000,01 Torr

According to the references at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum that pressure translates into one cubic meter occupied by approximately one or a few molecules of matter.

 

(I don't think the differences between Interplanetary space, Interstellar space, Intergalactic space will matter much in this discussion)

Edited May 24, 2020 by Ghideon
added answer about density in deep space

[Theredbarron]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Have you explained what you mean by this? 

Contrary to your stance on this, such detail matters, as telepathy is not real

see what I mean by I suck at at this! I littlerally have a problem with reading and comprehending it even my own questions sound great at first. 

ok the reason why vacuum is important to what im doing is because the wheel that im using generates vacuum or a lower pressure differential in one spot. dont know if that makes sense. it moves pockets in a manner that generates the lower pressure area. I used planets as the original understanding of how to create this wheel. I dont want to explain all that again because you wont get it is what I see. Its not telepathy. its a physical object and its actually extremely simple to understand but very hard to explain to any of you here. everyone else on the other hand. 

 

[Sensei]

12 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

ok the reason why vacuum is important to what im doing is because the wheel that im using generates vacuum or a lower pressure differential in one spot. dont know if that makes sense. it moves pockets in a manner that generates the lower pressure area. I used planets as the original understanding of how to create this wheel. I dont want to explain all that again because you wont get it is what I see. Its not telepathy. its a physical object and its actually extremely simple to understand but very hard to explain to any of you here. everyone else on the other hand. 

BTW, are you familiar with Crookes radiometer.. ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer

It has vanes (with brighter and darker side) placed in partial vacuum.. after shining light on it, it starts moving...

Edited May 24, 2020 by Sensei

[Theredbarron]

2 minutes ago, Sensei said:

BTW, are you familiar with Crookes radiometer.. ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer

It has wing placed in near vacuum with white side and black side.. after shining light on it, it starts moving...

isn't that because the one side of each blade gets hotter creating a slight pressure on that side spinning the deal when its in a near vacuum?

[Strange]

43 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

The vacuum is to attempt to get rid of air and see the effects if they still hold.

OK. So why not try just putting a barrier between the rotating thingy and the paper (or whatever other bits)?

44 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

I wanted to understand how important it is to get to 30. Where in space is comparable to 30 inches maybe?

Your 29 in Hg pressure is roughy equivalent to an altitude of about 75,000 feet (well inside the atmosphere).

As I think others have said, trying to express a vacuum as 30 inches of Hg isn't terribly meaningful or useful. It is a bit like asking about the thickness of a piece of paper in miles.

47 minutes ago, Theredbarron said:

How about what is the lowest vacuum? Is it simply a space that is not occupied by any matter for the lowest or is it a state of density of matter or gasses that occupy the space? 

It is the near absence of any matter. I posted a list of different levels of vacuum earlier. that should give you an idea. Of what you would need to achieve. But you need to drop the 29 or 30 inches of Hg measure and start using the right units.