The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?

[CharonY]

Now contrast that with someone else: https://medium.com/@BarackObama/how-to-make-this-moment-the-turning-point-for-real-change-9fa209806067

Quote

Finally, the more specific we can make demands for criminal justice and police reform, the harder it will be for elected officials to just offer lip service to the cause and then fall back into business as usual once protests have gone away. The content of that reform agenda will be different for various communities. A big city may need one set of reforms; a rural community may need another. Some agencies will require wholesale rehabilitation; others should make minor improvements. Every law enforcement agency should have clear policies, including an independent body that conducts investigations of alleged misconduct. Tailoring reforms for each community will require local activists and organizations to do their research and educate fellow citizens in their community on what strategies work best.

But as a starting point, here’s a report and toolkit developed by the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and based on the work of the Task Force on 21st Century Policing that I formed when I was in the White House. And if you’re interested in taking concrete action, we’ve also created a dedicated site at the Obama Foundation to aggregate and direct you to useful resources and organizations who’ve been fighting the good fight at the local and national levels for years.

 

[StringJunky]

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Now contrast that with someone else: https://medium.com/@BarackObama/how-to-make-this-moment-the-turning-point-for-real-change-9fa209806067

 

Those are the words and thoughts of presidential material. It starkly illustrates, with iNow's post, how unqualified Trump is for his current position.

Edited June 1, 2020 by StringJunky

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Those are the words and thoughts of presidential material. It starkly illustrates, with iNow's post, how unqualified Trump is for his current position.

And yet for a consistent 40-45% of the US voting populace, that's a feature, not a bug.

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

And yet for a consistent 40-45% of the US voting populace, that's a feature, not a bug.

That is the 'Me' part of America. "Ask not what I can do for my country but what my country can do for me". Apologies to JFK.

Edited June 1, 2020 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

That is the 'Me' part of America. "Ask not what I can do for my country but what my country can do for me". Apologies to JFK.

I've heard a libertarian translate JFKs words as "Ask not what those in power can do for you...ask what you can do...for those in power"

 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

That is the 'Me' part of America.

It’s amazing how quickly their position switched from “recommending that people wear masks when they’re out in public is tyranny!” instead to “the government can shoot dead anyone who is out on the street at night and they can do so for any reason.”

[MigL]

That's the attitude you develop when the only rights that matter are your own, INow.
( everyone else's rights be damned )

I hope none of you guys live near city centers and are safe from the violence.

[iNow]

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

I hope none of you guys live near city centers and are safe from the violence.

Sadly, I’m much safer than so many of my family, friends, and neighbors. 

https://www.vox.com/2020/5/31/21276004/4-charts-anger-police-killing-george-floyd-protests

[MigL]

From your link, and its charts, it looks like your police forces are out of control, INow.
They are shooting everybody !

I still maintain that this occurs because of your 2nd amendment, and the fact that police are trained to disable a perp, in case he is armed.
Our Canadian police forces are trained to de-escalate situations.
If they even pull their gun, never mind use it, they have two weeks of paperwork to fill out.

Get rid of the guns, and you won't only stop the mass shootings ( although we just had another one recently ), but police may actually talk to people to resolve situations.

The Police Killings by Ethnicity chart almost makes me afraid to visit the US.
( that is, if I could during a pandemic )

[joigus]

A big part of the problem may be rooted in muffled racist attitudes in sectors of society, economic inequality factors, political unwillingness to face certain facts, political convenience and who knows what else political or socioeconomic. Most everyone of you know much more than I do about this problem, and I'm more than willing to take a sit and learn. But, from my humble experience in the inner cities and the like, I can tell there is a regular profile of teenagers who want to make it into the police force in cities where the living is not easy. Quite a considerable number of the boys I've met who just wanted to become a policeman whatever the cost fell into the category of frustrated, misfits, racist, etc. types who would do anything for some adrenaline rush, doesn't matter whether it's one side or the other of law enforcing. I'm not saying that's the driving factor, but I think it's definitely a factor to be considered.  As long as these people are not carefully monitored, we will have a problem no matter what side of the world we are. Maybe the US has a bigger problem because of the Second Amendment. But there are factors other than political, that's all I'm saying.

Edited June 1, 2020 by joigus
minor stylistic correction

[iNow]

36 minutes ago, MigL said:

I still maintain that this occurs because of your 2nd amendment, and the fact that police are trained to disable a perp, in case he is armed.

I’m sure there’s validity in this point, but the issue has become so toxic that our guns aren’t going away any time soon. As soon as we decided that deaths of kindergartners was okay at Sandy Hook elementary school, we basically ceded the conversation. 

I’d say a bigger problem than guns is the culture within police departments themselves. It’s more like a gang. When one cops speaks up about bad behavior or overly aggressive acts of a colleague, they’re attacked and put at risk as punishment. Their calls for backup and help go unanswered bc they didn’t remain quiet or protect their “brother.” They’re a rat. 

It’s clearly worse in some places more than others, but in addition to our abundance of guns in the US, the police focus on and strategy of always dominating any situation (Trump mentioned the word “dominate” in his call with governors today for a reason... he knows it’s catnip for his base and for a sizable percentage of the police force), the culture of “no snitches allowed” in police depts is a major part of the reason that the same people protesting about this exact same problem of cops killing blacks 60 years ago find themselves once again out protesting today. 

Edit: Forgot to mention the clauses police unions have put into their contracts which make it nearly impossible to fire them or take them off the beat

[Ken Fabian]

I may not have worded it well, but I was not condoning police doing non-judicial "punishment"; quite the opposite. It is more evidence of failure of good governance.

I expect that because of the primary reason for the protest there is a lot of ill will, more than many protests for other causes, no doubt from both directions - loyalty and sympathy to the police involved, irrespective of circumstances by many of their colleagues amongst police, distrust and anger at the police amongst protesters. That is not a good start, even for those intent on peaceful but determined protest or for police who think they have a point. There will be hotheads, even where there are not organised provocateurs or smash and grab criminals or police who think a show of overwhelming force - which is likely to be as ill aimed as random rocks thrown at police lines - is the correct response. Which can inflame rather than quell.

If police want to operate with a de-facto blanket immunity from prosecution - and from the outside it looks like they do - they have to police their own internally, with zero tolerance that, if they cannot stomach criminal prosecution of their own, forces the unsuitable, incompetent and criminal out before they do too much damage. I have not seen much evidence of that in the police where I live, nor in the USA.

[MigL]

No wonder protesters get a bad name.
Just like cops, a few bad ones tarnish the whole group.

PORTLAND PROTESTERS LOOT LOUIS VITTON STORE

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1266634813152378887

so would you also say that if protesters want to be able to protest freely, they have to abide by the same rules and 'police' themselves internally also ,to avoid incidents like the above, with zero tolerance.

Edited June 2, 2020 by MigL

[dimreepr]

36 minutes ago, MigL said:

No wonder protesters get a bad name.
Just like cops, a few bad ones tarnish the whole group.

PORTLAND PROTESTERS LOOT LOUIS VITTON STORE

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1266634813152378887

so would you also say that if protesters want to be able to protest freely, they have to abide by the same rules and 'police' themselves internally also ,to avoid incidents like the above, with zero tolerance.

How long do think you'd internally 'police' yourself, with someone slapping you in the face?

Besides don't judge them, with food in your belly and a safe/dry/warm place to sleep. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

31 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How long do think you'd internally 'police' yourself, with someone slapping you in the face?

Besides don't judge them, with food in your belly and a safe/dry/warm place to sleep. 

Do you think your average rioter lacks these things?

[dimreepr]

10 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

I expect that because of the primary reason for the protest there is a lot of ill will, more than many protests for other causes, no doubt from both directions - loyalty and sympathy to the police involved, irrespective of circumstances by many of their colleagues amongst police, distrust and anger at the police amongst protesters. That is not a good start, even for those intent on peaceful but determined protest or for police who think they have a point. There will be hotheads, even where there are not organised provocateurs or smash and grab criminals or police who think a show of overwhelming force - which is likely to be as ill aimed as random rocks thrown at police lines - is the correct response. Which can inflame rather than quell.

It's always been my opinion that, anyone who wants to join the police should be stopped from doing so; I kid of course, but there will always be the bad apple's...

The difference between the police and a protester is: choice...

 

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Do you think your average rioter lacks these things?

What makes you think they don't???

Edited June 2, 2020 by dimreepr

[Dord]

BIG CAVEAT: The video, like far too many others in apparently similar circumstances, seems to clearly represent the relevant facts at that time.  BUT... just to clear: I am in no way commenting on any officers' actions before, during or after this event.  I think enough people have done that already.

But I will say that I am in favour of the legal concept (held by most countries) that a person suspected of a crime is presumed innocent until proven otherwise - and that suspicion can only be fully tested by independent judicial oversight in the courts where the provenance, veracity, value and weight of the entire evidence can be challenged and properly assessed.  And that includes police officers suspected of a criminal offence.

 

 

10 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

 

If police want to operate with a de-facto blanket immunity from prosecution - and from the outside it looks like they do - they have to police their own internally, with zero tolerance that, if they cannot stomach criminal prosecution of their own, forces the unsuitable, incompetent and criminal out before they do too much damage. I have not seen much evidence of that in the police where I live, nor in the USA.

I have a different view; maybe it is because I am on the inside having been in the military and various law enforcement agencies throughout my entire adult life.

Yes we have corrupt, criminal and incompetent officers, but they are a very small minority IMO disproportionately magnified in the public conscious due to a seemingly endless supply of Hollywood movies and TV cop shows all with the same narrative:

• Any senior officer willing to help - baddie and needs to be killed

• Cop's partner and best friend - baddie and needs to be killed

• Protected Persons (aka witness protection) - traced in minutes and then killed by one or both of the above as part of a major conspiracy that involves countless and random participants

• Suspects - tortured, they confess so that's okay

• Evidence tested in court - why bother when there's a confession?

• Accountability - non-existent

• Unethical and unprofessional behaviour - rife and possibly even encouraged by the audience "to get the job done"


And then there's social media, Youtube clips and some MSM reporting that offer us alternative facts.  Here for instance is an encounter from the UK that is all too familiar...

(Viewers' discretion is advised)

But then from another angle, the scene takes on a different perspective...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w7CC540KnOE

So, yes there corrupt, criminal and incompetent bad apples who may be supported by their colleagues closing ranks or (pretending to) not see certain events.

But a bad apple spoils the barrow; not the orchard.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Dord

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Dord said:

BIG CAVEAT: The video, like far too many others in apparently similar circumstances, seems to clearly represent the relevant facts at that time.  BUT... just to clear: I am in no way commenting on any officers' actions before, during or after this event.  I think enough people have done that already.

 

I have a different view; maybe it is because I am on the inside having been in the military and various law enforcement agencies throughout my adult life.

Yes we have corrupt, criminal and incompetent officers, but they are a very small minority IMO disproportionately magnified in to public conscious due to a seemingly endless supply of Hollywood movies and TV cop shows all with the same narrative:

• Any senior officer willing to help - baddie

• Cop's partner and best friend - baddie

• Protected Persons (aka witness protection) - traced in minutes and then killed by one or both of the above as part of a major conspiracy that involves countless participants

• Suspects - tortured, they confess so that's okay

• Evidence tested in court - why bother when there's a confession?

• Accountability - non-existent

• Unethical and unprofessional behaviour - rife and possibly encouraged by the audience "to get the job done"


And then there's social media, Youtube clips and some MSM reporting that offer alternative facts.  Here for instance is an encounter from the UK that is all too familiar...

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w7CC540KnOE

So, yes there corrupt, criminal and incompetent bad apples who may be supported by their colleagues closing ranks or (pretending to) not see certain events.

But a bad apple spoils the barrow; not the orchard.

On my way home one day (on my bike), a cop was policing a closed road junction, that I indicated I was turning off of; he not only stopped me doing that, but insisted I took my helmet off; while he investigated where I was going... And I'm a middle-aged white male on a brand new bike in a very friendly rural area of the Cotswolds and he was the first cop I'd spoken too in ten year's...

I'm not sure the orchards safe!!!

[Dord]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

On my way home one day (on my bike), a cop was policing a closed road junction, that I indicated I was turning off of; he not only stopped me doing that, but insisted I took my helmet off; while he investigated where I was going... And I'm a middle-aged white male on a brand new bike in a very friendly rural area of the Cotswolds and he was the first cop I'd spoken too in ten year's...

I'm not sure the orchards safe!!!

Hmmm.  Maybe he was bored and just fancied a chat, or were you wearing an inappropriate amount of lycra for a man of your age? 

[dimreepr]

Just now, Dord said:

Hmmm.  Maybe he was bored and just fancied a chat, or were you wearing an inappropriate amount of lycra for a man of your age? 

Maybe, I just wonder why I needed to take off my helmet to say "that way". 

Point well missed... 

[Siyatanush]

Those who are rioting are not helping the cause.

[dimreepr]

Just now, Siyatanush said:

Those who are rioting are not helping the cause.

Thanks for your insight...

[Phi for All]

The whole "bad apple" argument is also a distraction. In the US, it's used by the far right the way they use "lone gunman" to describe a white terrorist. People who espouse this concept are helping bad programs and policies continue. The focus should be on methodology and practice, not on individual police officers. This is a systemic problem.

[Curious layman]

13 minutes ago, Siyatanush said:

Those who are rioting are not helping the cause.

And those that are threatening the use of deadly force to end it are not helping either.

[dimreepr]

13 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

This is a systemic problem.

Indeed, I just wonder when it wasn't.

How big was the village???