The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?

[Moreno]

I want out of this "virtual reality" that our life resembles...

[iNow]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/
 

Quote

James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution

In an extraordinary condemnation, the former defense secretary backs protesters and says the president is trying to turn Americans against one another.
<snip>

Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’” We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. 

 

[Moreno]

Interesting, are there any racial riots in countries like Brazil? If not, why? Is situation with inter-racial relations less tense there? I have such impression (possibly erroneous) that racial riots in US and Europe could be intentionally provoked and encouraged to divide society along racial lines. For example just recently riots transferred to London, UK and what is most interesting - police doesn't stop the violence. They never do in such cases. Meanwhile it warms up sympathies to ultra-right parties in Europe. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52907101

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moreno

[MigL]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

Just read that the DA upgraded the charge to include 2nd degree murder.

The DA is going to have a heck of a time proving premeditation, and he'll only get convicted of the lesser charge anyway.
They may be doing this to appease the protesters, and calm the rioting down.

54 minutes ago, iNow said:

Your cartoon perverts the meaning of words, INow.
ALL lives should matter equally !
( currently, they don't )

If we simply say "Black Lives Matter", but then Native Americans, or latinx, or Orientals, are getting mistreated, are we going to have separate slogans for each one ?

[Moreno]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/police-related-deaths-hit-664-in-us-this-year-2015-07-29

Obviously, white lives shouldn't be a concern for someone.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moreno

[iNow]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

f we simply say "Black Lives Matter", but then Native Americans, or latinx, or Orientals, are getting mistreated, are we going to have separate slogans for each one ?

If you go to the doctor with a broken arm, and the doctor says, “but all bones matter,” you’d say, “yeah doc, of course that’s true, but this is the one that’s broken right now and it’s the whole reason I’m here, so perhaps we can please attempt to mend this one now?”

 

 

11 minutes ago, Moreno said:

Obviously, white lives shouldn't be a concern for someone.

Your own source clearly states those whites were mostly armed and in violent opposition to the police, but that:

Quote

By race, whites accounted for roughly half at 321deaths and blacks followed with 174. However, blacks were twice more likely than whites to be unarmed when killed by the police, The Guardian said.

Also, it was only the first 5 months of the year, and the year was 5 years ago. 

One really has to engage in some serious mental gymnastics and tortured logic to think your point is remotely valid. You’re either ignorant or lying or both, and none is helpful. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by iNow

[Moreno]

Police suppose to fight crime without fear to be accused in racial profiling for no reason. First they will start fear to shoot in an armed criminals, then they will start to fear even arrest or detain them. And later they will start afraid even come close to them. It could make wrong impression in some group of population that they are "untouchables" and breed even much more violence. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moreno

[iNow]

Gish gallop much?

Edited June 4, 2020 by iNow

[zapatos]

31 minutes ago, MigL said:

If we simply say "Black Lives Matter", but then Native Americans, or latinx, or Orientals, are getting mistreated, are we going to have separate slogans for each one ?

If a woman comes to your door asking for a donation for a cure for breast cancer are you going to question her motives because she is not addressing all cancers? Do you think she doesn't believe that lung cancer is also bad?

If violence against blacks by police ends, but Native Americans are still targeted then we will have a  separate slogan stating Native American Lives Matter. I am unsure why we can't have a separate slogan for blacks when we have a separate slogan for breast cancer, or smoking (why not ALL vices?), or Democrats (why not collect money for ALL parties? Don't they matter?), or Earth Day (Do you know how hot it is on Venus?!?!).

I think the questioning of BLM shows a subtle racial bias. I've never heard anyone complain that women seeking equal rights is a slam against men, but if blacks ask to be treated equally there is always someone to criticize their motives.

And this is not directed at you MigL, but you gave me the opportunity to rant a bit. Thanks!

[MigL]

I understand your points, INow and Zap, and fully agree with it.

But say you have a protester with a sign that said "Native American lives matter also", would he/she be kicked out of the protest march ?
What if another was carrying a sign that said "Latinx lives matter also", do you think they should be kicked out, or admonished for it ?
Or protesters with signs that say "Oriental Muslim lives matter too", would they be fired from their jobs, or receive neg reps on this forum ?

Because that is what is happening when people try to be inclusive ( remember when that was a politically correct word ) and say " ALL lives have to matter if we are to get past this mess ).

Edited June 4, 2020 by MigL

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

But say you have a protester with a sign that said "Native American lives matter also", would he/she be kicked out of the protest march ?
What if another was carrying a sign that said "Latinx lives matter also", do you think they should be kicked out, or admonished for it ?

Unlikely, those two groups also suffer disproportionately. "Oriental" is complicated (and suspicious) for a whole bunch of reasons. And the strongest rebuke to this argument is perhaps the fact that Native American and Hispanic groups have joined into the BLM banner. It does seem that predominantly white folks see that as an issue.

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

The DA is going to have a heck of a time proving premeditation, and he'll only get convicted of the lesser charge anyway.

Possible, but as I mentioned, stacking is a tactic often used against folks with less means (such as black folks). And the worry was that it would be pleaded down to manslaughter (instead of murder in the third). 

In this case the DA may actually have a decent chance due to the length it took to kill his victim even after he was pleading for his life.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

If you go to the doctor with a broken arm, and the doctor says, “but all bones matter,” you’d say, “yeah doc, of course that’s true, but this is the one that’s broken right now and it’s the whole reason I’m here, so perhaps we can please attempt to mend this one now?”

The problem is that for too many it becomes "all arm bones matter", and the focus becomes too often on healthy arm bones along with broken arm bones.

All broken bones matter is more accurate, but of course that is, too often again, not the goal. 

[Moreno]

In my understanding severe racial harassment is not a widespread issue in US and there were only 174 blacks in total killed by police in 2015. Per 310.000.000 of population! This number includes those who were killed for a reason (correct me if I'm wrong). And regularly every few years there is someone with a videotape to picture brutal killing of an innocent black in all the details. Purely accidentally of course. A good reason for large scale violence. And of course police don't use armed force to stop violence immediately, like they just waited for something like this to happen. There is something suspicious in all it.

[MigL]

30 minutes ago, CharonY said:

"Oriental" is complicated (and suspicious)

Sorry CY, bad choice of ethnicity; just pick any other disenfranchised and oppressed group of people.
It doesn't change the point I was trying to make ( and now, I'm not sure if it got across )
I have edited my post from Oriental to another group of oppressed people.
 

30 minutes ago, CharonY said:

stacking is a tactic often used against folks with less means

Just to be clear, 3rd degree is the more serious offence to manslaughter, right ?
so whereas before they could expect 3rd to be plead down to manslaughter, now they expect 2nd to be plead down to 3rd ?
( I wasn't even aware there was a 3rd, previously )
In that case what are the 'levels' of premeditation that separate 1st and 2nd degree murder ?

Edited June 4, 2020 by MigL

[iNow]

51 minutes ago, Moreno said:

In my understanding...

Your understanding isn’t accurate. You should fix that. 

54 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The problem is that for too many it becomes "all arm bones matter", and the focus becomes too often on healthy arm bones along with broken arm bones.

Please, quantify this. For “too many?” How many? I’ll accept and order if magnitude estimate. Becomes “too often?” How often? One in five? In ten? A hundred? A million?

Knowing you won’t be able answer my entirely reasonable request in an even remotely satisfactory way, perhaps we can simply agree there is a problem affecting Americans of specific ethnicities in an asymmetric way and that we should be allies in making things better, even if better often falls short of perfect. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

But say you have a protester with a sign that said "Native American lives matter also", would he/she be kicked out of the protest march ?

If you organized a charity event to raise money for breast cancer and someone showed up and started asking for money for lung cancer, how would you feel? You would of course recognize that lung cancer is bad too, but would probably be annoyed that you weren't given the courtesy of being allowed to focus on your cause at your event. Here you are trying to do a good thing and someone else is using your event to bring attention to their own personal cause, and taking attention away from your own.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Or protesters with signs that say "Oriental Muslim lives matter too", would they be fired from their jobs, or receive neg reps on this forum ?

The negative feedback people receive for "ALL lives matter" comments has to do with the tone deaf or racist undertones that comment imparts.

Tone deaf as in; 

Mom: "My son just died because he was accidentally shot by his friend who was playing with his dad's gun. I want to raise awareness to make sure it doesn't happen to others."

Bystander: "Kids die from all kinds of accidents. There is nothing special about your kid's cause of death. You should not act like your kids accident should receive extra attention. You should care about ALL types of accidents."

This shows a complete lack of empathy for what that mother is going through. She suffered and wants to make sure others don't, but this bystander can't manage to see it from her perspective, but rather in some dispassionate statistical manner. If this  bystander wants to draw attention to ALL types of accidents they should do it in their own way on their own time, and not by minimizing what the mother is doing by implying she is selfish for only focusing on the cause of death of her kid. But of course they never will participate in a march for ALL types of accidents, they will only criticize what others do.

Racist as in;

Protester: "Black Lives Matter, we need to stop being worried about our kids not coming home at night just because they were driving, or shopping, or in a 'white' neighborhood, or committed some petty crime."

Bystander: "ALL lives matter. If your kid had just did what the cops said nothing would happen to them. I always say 'yes sir' to cops and do what they say. If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. There is no reason some particular minority has to commit a disproportionate number of crimes and murders. If you loot, we will shoot."

Yeah, just a racist. Never believe that a black man didn't get what was coming to them. Just don't care, and not afraid to say it. Or, they are one of the many who are quite sure they are not racist, but they never make a similar putdown on white people, only blacks. They are in complete denial.

Both the tone deaf and the racist need to be called out. It is one thing to discuss whether or not BLM should really be ALM, but to simply criticize someone for marching for BLM is, IMHO, out of line.

[Moreno]

34 minutes ago, iNow said:

Your understanding isn’t accurate. You should fix that. 

You may help me. Provide some proved data or a stories from you personal experience.

Imagine the following situation: ether white or colored policemen killed a white person in US for no reason. A huge crowd of whites under slogans "White lives matter" devastate stores (including those belonging to colored people). Should it be welcomed? 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moreno

[StringJunky]

5 hours ago, Moreno said:

I think in a developed and morally advanced society there should be no doubts large scale protests (desirably peaceful) against unnecessary police brutality. But sadly involving racial accent into the protests only divides society even deeper. Because protesters demand justice only for a part of population rather than for everyone. What are they going to loose if they will protest against brutality in general without race accents? People suppose to unite on issue overcoming racial barriers. Also it would be interesting to know: is there some evident proves that the race was the main reason of an excessive force use? What if something like this would happen to an Asian or a Caucasian? 

Because blacks are disproportionately singled out and treated with less respect by white officers.

5 hours ago, Moreno said:

Everyone's life matters.

But the current situation is that black lives don't matter as much as everybody elses by those responsible for law and order.

[iNow]

26 minutes ago, Moreno said:

You may help me

You need me to cut your meat and tie your shoelaces for you, too?

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, Moreno said:

In my understanding severe racial harassment is not a widespread issue in US and there were only 174 blacks in total killed by police in 2015. Per 310.000.000 of population! This number includes those who were killed for a reason (correct me if I'm wrong). And regularly every few years there is someone with a videotape to picture brutal killing of an innocent black in all the details. Purely accidentally of course. A good reason for large scale violence. And of course police don't use armed force to stop violence immediately, like they just waited for something like this to happen. There is something suspicious in all it.

You need better news sources. Try to find evidence to see what the situation is, rather than what supports your belief. It's called  "confirmation bias"... you might have heard of it.

Quote

Young black men killed by US police at highest rate in year of 1,134 deaths

 This article is more than 4 years old

Final total of people killed by US police officers in 2015 shows rate of death for young black men was five times higher than white men of the same age

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by StringJunky

[Airbrush]

Maybe "the last straw" but certainly a perfect political storm.  You have a once-in-a-century, global pandemic.  You have VERY high unemployment, so lots of people out of work and school.  More people than every watching the news on TV.  The protesters were upset to begin with and they have plenty of time to protest.  More time available for protesting than in decades.  Then the murder of George Floyd was so blatant and documented on video.  It is horrifying.  Then Trump's "law and order" response only poured gas on the fire.  Will the White House be surrounded by protesting, angry mobs in the thousands, all the way up to the election in November?  I don't see any relief for the White House for a long time.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Airbrush

[DrmDoc]

7 hours ago, Moreno said:

Are there any obvious and absolutely undoubtful proves he was killed for been a black primarily? I would agree there are such proves if his killer is a member of a racist organization which proclaimed killing blacks as a part of their program. 

Although the proof you seek isn't as overt as you perceive, Chauvin was a 19 year police veteran with numerous (18) citizen complaints in a predominantly minority district.  This service record suggests that Chauvin was as deaf to the complaints of the minority citizens he was supposed to serve and protect as he was to the pleas of the black man he asphyxiated. Minus his uniform, badge and position on that fateful day, Chauvin was just another white man with an unyielding knee on the neck of a black man. Yes, it was racist!

Edited June 4, 2020 by DrmDoc

[dimreepr]

[Strange]

6 hours ago, MigL said:

Because that is what is happening when people try to be inclusive ( remember when that was a politically correct word ) and say " ALL lives have to matter if we are to get past this mess ).

People very rarely (never?) say that to be inclusive. They do it to deny the message that black people’s life’s are just as important as theirs. 

They are saying “how dare you tell me that your life matters”. And that is a despicable statement. 

[Moreno]

3 hours ago, DrmDoc said:

Although the proof you seek isn't as overt as you perceive, Chauvin was a 19 year police veteran with numerous (18) citizen complaints in a predominantly minority district.  This service record suggests that Chauvin was as deaf to the complaints of the minority citizens he was supposed to serve and protect as he was to the pleas of the black man he asphyxiated. Minus his uniform, badge and position on that fateful day, Chauvin was just another white man with an unyielding knee on the neck of a black man. Yes, it was racist!

This is bad, of course. But there is some difference between a racial genocide as covert/open government program and an individual psycho. Are an individual white racists more common than colored racists? Including police officers? If yes, why? I thought that all races are equal and therefore racism (and racism motivated crime) should be equally common among them all. 

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Final total of people killed by US police officers in 2015 shows rate of death for young black men was five times higher than white men of the same age

 

And what about crime rate?

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moreno