The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?

[Dagl1]

1 minute ago, Moreno said:

This is bad, of course. But there is some difference between a racial genocide as covert/open government program and an individual psycho. Are an individual white racists more common than colored racists? Including police officers? If yes, why? I thought that all races are equal and therefore racism (and racism motivated crime) should be equally common among them all. 

Because some people have been on the receiving end of racism for much longer than others, potentially making their experiences different. But the problem is that currently white people hold much more societal power than those with other skin colours and those that are parts of religions that are not Christianity. This means that even if there would be equal racism among all people, the consequences disproportionately affect non-white/non-Christian (in the western world!) people. Hence people speak of systemic racism, yes it may be (please note that I am not saying this is the case) the case that if most power in the USA and other western countries would lie in people of colour, they would be equally racist. But they are not in power (generally) and thus the current issue is that they are disproportionally discriminated against. If we ever get to a position where it is the other away around, then we have a different issue to solve.

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, Moreno said:

This is bad, of course. But there is some difference between a racial genocide as covert/open government program and an individual psycho. Are an individual white racists more common than colored racists? Including police officers? If yes, why? I thought that all races are equal and therefore racism (and racism motivated crime) should be equally common among them all. 

Even if prejudice is equally common across all groups, that is not the point. It misses the point by several light years.

White people are in positions of privilege, authority and power. They have the power to exploit and abuse black people (and other minorities) with impunity.

Even without that, they have advantages because of their privilege: they don't have to put up with daily insults because of their race, they don't get treated with suspicion whenever they go shopping, they don't have to worry about being repeatedly stopped by the police for no reason, they don't have to teach their children how not to be killed by the police.

17 minutes ago, Dagl1 said:

Because some people have been on the receiving end of racism for much longer than others, potentially making their experiences different.

 

Quote

But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.

You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, “you are free to compete with all the others,” and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.

President Lyndon Johnson

https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/27-the-sixties/lyndon-johnson-howard-university-commencement-address-1965/

[Dagl1]

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

Even if prejudice is equally common across all groups, that is not the point. It missis the point by several light years.

White people are in positions of privilege, authority and power. They have the power to exploit and abuse black people (and other minorities) with impunity.

Even without that, they have advantages because of their privilege: they don't have to put up with daily insults because of their race, they don't get treated with suspicion whenever they go shopping, they don't have to worry about being repeatedly stopped by the police for no reason, they don't have to teach their children how not to be killed by the police.

 

President Lyndon Johnson

https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/27-the-sixties/lyndon-johnson-howard-university-commencement-address-1965/

You said it more clearly than I did!

[dimreepr]

53 minutes ago, Moreno said:

This is bad, of course. But there is some difference between a racial genocide as covert/open government program and an individual psycho. Are an individual white racists more common than colored racists? Including police officers? If yes, why? I thought that all races are equal and therefore racism (and racism motivated crime) should be equally common among them all. 

 

[MigL]

I do 'get' it, Dim, Zap, CY, INow, and all who have tried explaining.
My concern is that often we find 'hidden' meaning in certain words or phrases.
Usually because our perception of those words or phrases are colored by our life experiences.

And not to make light of a person losing his life to deliberate brutality, but this incident couldn't have come at a worse time.
In about a week there will be an explosion of Covid-19 cases all across the US.
And of course, predominantly in the communities that took part in the protests.
How many more will die ?

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 hours ago, iNow said:

Your understanding isn’t accurate. You should fix that. 

Please, quantify this. For “too many?” How many? I’ll accept and order if magnitude estimate. Becomes “too often?” How often? One in five? In ten? A hundred? A million?

 

Going by the rhetoric commonly espoused by political leaders probably 30%, but let's say it's half of that, 15% of those forming an opinion, and rising every time the rhetoric on one side gets repeated. (with the other side views getting polarized similarly as a result and with most willing to say anything mostly talking past each other

8 hours ago, iNow said:

 

Knowing you won’t be able answer my entirely reasonable request in an even remotely satisfactory way...

With respect to accuracy? Probably not. With respect to emotion? Definitely not.

8 hours ago, iNow said:

perhaps we can simply agree there is a problem affecting Americans of specific ethnicities in an asymmetric way and that we should be allies in making things better, even if better often falls short of perfect. 

Agree.

The hard part is how best to proceed.

[Strange]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

And not to make light of a person losing his life to deliberate brutality, but this incident couldn't have come at a worse time.
In about a week there will be an explosion of Covid-19 cases all across the US.
And of course, predominantly in the communities that took part in the protests.
How many more will die ?

I don't think this is making light. It is likely to be a major problem. And, of course, it is blacks and other minorities who are worse hit by Covid-19 (for a variety of reasons).

Making light of it would be to suggest that Trump will be recommending tear gas as a cure.

[koti]

13 hours ago, iNow said:

I think that your fixation on the racial part of whats happening in the US for the past week/months/years is not healthy and certainly not giving the broad picture of whats really going on. I am not surprised to see that though, after all US is a highly racist place and always has been. 
People, especially the lower middle class have had enough of the quarantine and are going nuts. The murder of George Floyd (I hope the cop never gets out of jail one way or another) was just a drop that tipped the scale. People started looting and burning down cities, dozens of the phone recorded clips Ive seen for the past week are all saying the same thing - people went nuts and need to be contained and unfortunately its that morons POTUS’s job to do so. I see this whole thing through the lens of firearms - if cops in the US weren’t afraid that every single person on the streets is carying a gun this whole situation would be completely different. I don’t know what needs to happen for Americans to understand this, Im not sure its even possible at this point. 

[Strange]

22 minutes ago, koti said:

People, especially the lower middle class have had enough of the quarantine and are going nuts.

While this may have exacerbated things, and encouraged more young (often white) kids to join in for the "fun" and looting, the underlying problem is real and almost entirely a problem of race. We have seen the same scenes pay out before (in the USA and the UK) for very similar reasons. Unfortunately, in the USA, almost nothing has changed.

After the Brixton riots, the local police did change their behaviour somewhat which improved the situation. But if you're a young, black male you are still going to be treated with suspicion.

27 minutes ago, koti said:

if cops in the US weren’t afraid that every single person on the streets is carying a gun this whole situation would be completely different.

Yeah, that doesn't help.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Going by the rhetoric commonly espoused by political leaders probably 30%, but let's say it's half of that, 15% of those forming an opinion, and rising every time the rhetoric on one side gets repeated

Well, since we're now just pulling numbers out of our ass, I'll tell you you're wrong, and that the number is actually less than 0.5%. See! Amazing how we can make any argument when we make up numbers. 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I do 'get' it, Dim, Zap, CY, INow, and all who have tried explaining.
My concern is that often we find 'hidden' meaning in certain words or phrases.
Usually because our perception of those words or phrases are colored by our life experiences.

And not to make light of a person losing his life to deliberate brutality, but this incident couldn't have come at a worse time.
In about a week there will be an explosion of Covid-19 cases all across the US.
And of course, predominantly in the communities that took part in the protests.
How many more will die ?

Except you kind of are, and you're off topic.

If the protestor's are willing to face a foe that has a track record of openly killing people, with a leader who is actively encouraging  them to do so.

I don't imagine the prosect of a cold, possibly worse, is much of a deterant.

Edited June 4, 2020 by dimreepr

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The hard part is how best to proceed.

I knew you'd be willing to be an ally on this, so thanks. More than anything, we just need to ensure we actually DO move forward. It seems so often these conversations just die on the vine and we find ourselves in the exact same places again in just a few short weeks when it happens next time.

[dimreepr]

34 minutes ago, koti said:

if cops in the US weren’t afraid that every single person on the streets is carying a gun this whole situation would be completely different.

If the cops in the US weren't "taught/trained" to be afraid that every single person on the streets is carying a gun this whole situation would be completely different. (FTFY)

De-escalation training has been shown to reduce death, in both the police and the public.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-gun-shooting-training-ferguson/383681/

[iNow]

35 minutes ago, koti said:

I think that your fixation on the racial part of whats happening in the US for the past week/months/years is not healthy

You're welcome to think whatever you want. My "fixation" is on the fact that these trends are deep rooted, well established, and persistent. We are all citizens equally protected, yet those protections are not equally applied. Whether it's in policing, experience with the justice system and imprisonment, education and dilapidated schools, red lined districts preventing home-ownership and creation of wealth, access to fresh foods, being spoke to as "less than" in daily interactions or viewed with suspicion for doing perfectly normal things like bird watching...

The "racial part" of what's happening is the important part right now, and suggesting that it's not is unfortunately indicative of little more than your own white privilege. 

White guy guns down a church full of people praying or a school full of children? Gently walked out by authorities and respectfully given due process of the law. White guys arrive to a state capitols and start waving semi-automatic rifles around in the governors mansion or saying the only good democrat is a dead democrat? They're called very fine people and allowed to remain there to share their message of protest without intervention from the police.

But when a black guy sells some loose cigarettes on the street for a buck a pop, or 12 year old boy squirting water out of a squirt gun at a park, or man uses an allegedly forged $20 bill at a convenience store? Dead from police. A white guy using a forged $20 bill at a store has a fun story he tells at parties for the next few years. A black guy using a forged $20 bill at a store has a headstone and an orphaned family.

What's not healthy is the american system of quote unquote justice and the way so many americans can't seem to see how drastically different their experience is from their neighbors, but if you wish to instead focus on me for rightly highlighting these facts and hoping to perhaps inspire some modicum of support for change and improvements, well... then that's your prerogative and you're fee to do so. 

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If the cops in the US weren't "taught/trained" to be afraid that every single person on the streets is carying a gun this whole situation would be completely different. (FTFY)

De-escalation training has been shown to reduce death, in both the police and the public.

Studies have also shown that the police departments which purpose more retired equipment from the military for use in local towns tend to have higher rates of death by cop and restrictions to constitutionally protected freedoms in their areas. It's the "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" situation

[Moreno]

15 hours ago, Strange said:

That is a ridiculous statement.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

If this statistic is related to white racism somehow, then it is curious to discover that white racist police officers hate other whites much more than Asians/Pacific Islanders as they kill their own whites much more often in relative proportions.

Average income in USA by ethnicity. The wealthiest are East Indians at $132,746 by household. Followed by all other Asians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

Very strange "systematic racism" indeed.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moreno

[Dagl1]

6 minutes ago, Moreno said:

If this statistic is related to white racism somehow, then it is curious to discover that white racist police officers hate other whites much more than Asians/Pacific Islanders as they kill their own whites much more often in relative proportions.

Maybe it is an interesting thing to research yes, but does this, together with other people's explanation and Dimreepr's video explain to you the problem people (non-white/non-christian) are facing? Your previous posts seemed to ask why these things were problems, did these questions get answered and do you understand the problems and why people are currently battling racism coming from white people that is ingrained in the system (within the USA, and possibly other places in the western world)? Do you agree that white-people disproportionately hold power in society, and do you also agree with the fact (which is a strange question) that non-whites are more often victims of police misconduct, brutality, and assault. 

Do you think things should be systematically changed because of these things that have been shown to you? 

[Moreno]

7 minutes ago, Dagl1 said:

Do you agree that white-people disproportionately hold power in society

Not personally me. But I deserve for better.

[koti]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

You're welcome to think whatever you want. My "fixation" is on the fact that these trends are deep rooted, well established, and persistent. We are all citizens equally protected, yet those protections are not equally applied. Whether it's in policing, experience with the justice system and imprisonment, education and dilapidated schools, red lined districts preventing home-ownership and creation of wealth, access to fresh foods, being spoke to as "less than" in daily interactions or viewed with suspicion for doing perfectly normal things like bird watching...

The "racial part" of what's happening is the important part right now, and suggesting that it's not is unfortunately indicative of little more than your own white privilege. 

White guy guns down a church full of people praying or a school full of children? Gently walked out by authorities and respectfully given due process of the law. White guys arrive to a state capitols and start waving semi-automatic rifles around in the governors mansion or saying the only good democrat is a dead democrat? They're called very fine people and allowed to remain there to share their message of protest without intervention from the police.

But when a black guy sells some loose cigarettes on the street for a buck a pop, or 12 year old boy squirting water out of a squirt gun at a park, or man uses an allegedly forged $20 bill at a convenience store? Dead from police. A white guy using a forged $20 bill at a store has a fun story he tells at parties for the next few years. A black guy using a forged $20 bill at a store has a headstone and an orphaned family.

What's not healthy is the american system of quote unquote justice and the way so many americans can't seem to see how drastically different their experience is from their neighbors, but if you wish to instead focus on me for rightly highlighting these facts and hoping to perhaps inspire some modicum of support for change and improvements, well... then that's your prerogative and you're fee to do so.

There is a lot which I agree with in your above post, theres some with which I somewhat agree and some which I dont agree with at all. Racial issues which are always a part of everything USA are not necessarily something which is of an issue for every one else on this planet. I don’t know how much more of freedom and racial equality the US can take but judging by whats happening in the last week in major US cities I have a feeling that its not much more. Ive never seen in any other developed country so much straight up in your face racism from whites and blacks alike, its a disease and there is no singular cure.

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Moreno said:

Not personally me. But I deserve for better.

Nor me, poor white trash, but I just deserve the same.

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, Moreno said:

Not personally me. But I deserve for better.

You do have more power and privilege than black people (or other minorities). The fact you are not ware of it is part of the problem.

Here, try this: 

 

How many fingers do you have left?

 

[koti]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

How many fingers do you have left?

 

I will do this test with my neighbour Tunde who was born and raised in Łódź, is 100% Polish and is as black as it gets (his Dad is Nigerian) I’ll get back to you.

[Dagl1]

4 minutes ago, Moreno said:

Not personally me. But I deserve for better.

Together with your other statements, this answer seems as if you are not agreeing with the other points, or have not gotten any new knowledge or insight from peoples post, this could of course be completely untrue, but at the same time, based on the tendency of your previous answers and posts on other topics, it is not unreasonable (to me) to think that you still hold your initial believes, not understanding that systemic racism exists, denying its existence, or not seeing how the fact that it is currently a bigger issue for some people than for others (and should therefore first be solved for those people (referring back to the comment about every group of people (on average) possibly being equally as racist)). 

Some post ago you asked people in this forum to help you comprehend; they have attempted to, did it make a difference, do you now understand more than before? If not, why? Again I could be completely misreading it, but to me it feels like you evaded the other questions I asked.

[Strange]

1 minute ago, koti said:

I will do this test with my neighbour Tunde who was born and raised in Łódź, is 100% Polish and is as black as it gets (his Dad is Nigerian) I’ll get back to you.

I suspect that Polish (and other European) migrants in the UK would do pretty badly on this after the last few years.

[koti]

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

I suspect that Polish (and other European) migrants in the UK would do pretty badly on this after the last few years.

But doesn’t that tell us that white privilage is subjective? 

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, koti said:

But doesn’t that tell us that white privilage is subjective? 

No, it tells us that privilege is real, the subjective part is how the privileged perceive a threat...