The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?

[Phi for All]

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Thanks. But wasn't Dim responding in a way that many of the more well meaning protestors (not the violent looters) are espousing? Doing his best to speak out against even "hidden" racism?

!

Moderator Note

They don't post in this thread, and are therefore outside my purview. 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

Thanks INow.

But your link seems to disagree with your claim that Blacks "commit crimes at the same (or less) rate"

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

"What might appear at first to be a linkage between race and crime is in large part a function of concentrated urban poverty, which is far more common for African Americans than for other racial groups. This accounts for a substantial portion of African Americans’ increased likelihood of committing certain violent and property crimes."¹⁰⁾ 

It doesn't discount the effect of discrimination by the police/judicial system...but unless that's a greater factor than other socio economic effects...neither did I.

[dimreepr]

11 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

But your link seems to disagree with your claim that Blacks "commit crimes at the same (or less) rate"

Should I report him, Phi?

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Should I report him, Phi?

For quoting INow and a contradicting UN report? (which he thought was supporting evidence for his claim)

Or is it for something else?

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

For quoting INow and a contradicting UN report? (which he thought was supporting evidence for his claim)

Or is it for something else?

Just wondering...

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

your link seems to disagree with your claim

It doesn't, though, because if you continue reading you see that the bias persists even upon correcting for SES and poverty. See also:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

Quote

A 2013 report by the American Civil Liberties Union found that blacks were "3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession," even though "blacks and whites use drugs, including marijuana, at similar rates."^[71] A 2020 study in the journal Nature found that black drivers were stopped more often than white drivers, and that the threshold by which police decided to search black and Hispanic drivers was lower than that for whites (judging by the rate at which contraband was found in searches).^[12] Analysis of more than 20 million traffic stops in North Carolina showed that blacks were more than twice as likely as whites to be pulled over by police for traffic stops, and that blacks were more likely to be searched following the stop. There were no significant difference in the likelihood that Hispanics would be pulled over, but Hispanics were much more likely to be searched following a traffic stop than whites. When the study controlled for searches in high-crime areas, it still found that police disproportionately targeted black individuals. These racial disparities were particularly pronounced for young men. The study found that whites who were searched were more likely to carry contraband than blacks and Hispanics.^[72][73]

A 2018 study in the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies found that law enforcement officers in Texas who could charge shoplifters with two types of crimes (one more serious, one less so) due to a vaguely worded statute were more likely to charge blacks and Hispanics with the more serious crime.^[74]

A 2019 study, which made use of a dataset of the racial makeup of every U.S. sheriff over a 25-year period, found that "ratio of Black‐to‐White arrests is significantly higher under White sheriffs" and that the effects appear to be "driven by arrests for less‐serious offenses and by targeting Black crime types."^[75]

A 2019 study by the National Institute of Standards and Technology found that facial-recognition systems were substantially more likely to misidentify the faces of racial minorities.^[76] Some ethnic groups, such as Asian-Americans and African-American, were up to 100 times more likely to be misidentified than white men.^[76]

A 2018 study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that tall young black men are especially likely to receive unjustified attention by law enforcement.^[77] The authors furthermore found a "causal link between perceptions of height and perceptions of threat for Black men, particularly for perceivers who endorse stereotypes that Black people are more threatening than White people."^[77]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/04/another-excuse-police-bias-bites-dust/

Quote

there’s also evidence that undermines the entire premise of “cops are harder on black people because black people commit more crimes.” Study after study after study has found that police are more likely to search black motorists after a traffic stop, even though those same studies found that white motorists are far more likely to be in possession of illicit drugs or weapons. This is true all over the country — in North Carolina, in St. Louis, in Vermont, in Nashville, in Milwaukee, in San Diego and in Boston. It’s hard to come up with an explanation for that sort of disparity that doesn’t include racial bias.

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/chicago-police-department-consent-decree-black-lives-matter-resistance.html

Quote

According to the new numbers, Chicago police officers used more force against black citizens, on average, than any other race—even though black citizens tended to exercise less resistance than whites. Under the same circumstances and faced with the same level of danger, cops tended to resolve the situation without firing their weapons much more often for white citizens than black citizens. This analysis was based on Chicago PD’s own descriptions of the incidents in question ...

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

IN

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

It doesn't, though, because if you continue reading you see that the bias persists even upon correcting for SES and poverty. See also:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

 

 

It does though...because if you actually read and understand the links you are presenting...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

"In the United States, the relationship between race and crime has been a topic of public controversy and scholarly debate for more than a century.^[1] Crime rates vary significantly between racial groups. Most homicide victims in the United States are of the same race as the perpetrator.

Academic research indicates that the over-representation of some racial minorities in the criminal justice system can in part be explained by socioeconomic factors, such as poverty, exposure to poor neighborhoods, poor access to public education, poor access to early childhood education, and exposure to harmful chemicals (such as lead) and pollution.^[2][3] Racial housing segregation has also been linked to racial disparities in crime rates, as blacks have historically and to the present been prevented from moving into prosperous low-crime areas through actions of the government (such as redlining) and private actors.^[4][5][6] Various explanations within criminology have been proposed to explain racial disparities in crime rates, including conflict theory, strain theory, general strain theory, social disorganization theory, macrostructural opportunity theory, social control theory, and subcultural theory."

Then it continues with something that you might conflate with supporting your claim:

"Research also indicates that there is extensive racial and ethnic discrimination by police and the judicial system..."

IE. It isn't enough to support your claim. 

This shouldn't be controversial (but I realize it is). It should not be surprising that socio economic factors influence the commission of crimes.

Both Wiki and the UN seem to agree.

[iNow]

Once correcting for SES, the rate of crimes committed is equivalent and/or lower for blacks. Is this more inline with your expectations (which strike me as needless pedantic since we largely agree)?

[J.C.MacSwell]

28 minutes ago, iNow said:

Once correcting for SES, the rate of crimes committed is equivalent and/or lower for blacks. Is this more inline with your expectations (which strike me as needless pedantic since we largely agree)?

Socio economic situation?  I would expect equivalency, but would also be hard pressed to trust any data or manipulation of it.

Socio economic status? I would certainly expect more white collar crimes from those groups more affluent, and more street crimes from those groups less so. (but not enough to differentiate individuals on that basis, and certainly not by race)

I don't believe the races (to the degree people can be subdivided) are inherently any different in this. 

Why do you believe it might be lower for Blacks?

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

59 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Why do you believe it might be lower for Blacks?

It? Why what might be lower?

[CharonY]

47 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Socio economic status? I would certainly expect more white collar crimes from those groups more affluent, and more street crimes from those groups less so. (but not enough to differentiate individuals on that basis, and certainly not by race)

Even so, we have a bias in the system. White collar crimes are punished less severe than what you cal street crime and the latter are typically also subject to more policing. 

 

47 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't believe the races (to the degree people can be subdivided) are inherently any different in this. 

That is a good starting point, and therefore whenever we see disparity, we need to look into factors causing observed differences. With regard to that specific point, it depends a bit on the data set, as different areas show different outcomes, indicating complex factors are at play. Some studies suggest that local inequality are associated with higher crime rate (e.g. if one part of town drops economically). This does seem to be more frequent in white neighbourhoods, potentially because black areas start off fairly low to begin with.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

It? Why what might be lower?

 

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Once correcting for SES, the rate of crimes committed is equivalent and/or lower for blacks. Is this more inline with your expectations (which strike me as needless pedantic since we largely agree)?

Why would you suggest that? Is it not reasonable to assume that given reasonably equivalent conditions, we can expect reasonably equivalent outcomes? Why would you suspect it could be lower for Blacks?

 

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Even so, we have a bias in the system. White collar crimes are punished less severe than what you cal street crime and the latter are typically also subject to more policing. 

 

That is a good starting point, and therefore whenever we see disparity, we need to look into factors causing observed differences. With regard to that specific point, it depends a bit on the data set, as different areas show different outcomes, indicating complex factors are at play. Some studies suggest that local inequality are associated with higher crime rate (e.g. if one part of town drops economically). This does seem to be more frequent in white neighbourhoods, potentially because black areas start off fairly low to begin with.

We have plenty of biases in our systems. They aren't all racial driven, despite the difficulties in separating the motives.

[CharonY]

20 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

We have plenty of biases in our systems. They aren't all racial driven, despite the difficulties in separating the motives.

Of course, but the racial divide is something that sticks out in research again and again. And the reverse is also true, non-racial motives can result in racial disparity. All of them have to be addressed. Only focusing on motives and not looking at outcomes is not helpful to solve the issue.

[iNow]

42 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Why would you suggest that? ...Why would you suspect it could be lower for Blacks?

https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/rates_of_drug_use_and_sales_by_race_rates_of_drug_related_criminal_justice

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/rates_of_drug_use_and_sales_by_race_rates_of_drug_related_criminal_justice

I don't see the drug use (here slightly higher for Whites) or selling of drugs (here slightly higher for Blacks) disparities being statistically significant. Not enough to suspect that whites may be inherently more likely to commit crimes. 

The arrest/incarceration graphs are another matter.

How much of that is due to police/judicial discrimination, how much due to police/judicial focus on type of drugs (I'm making an assumption that it reasonably could be due to differences in danger or other factors), and how much due to other socio economic effects? (not intended as rhetorical questions)

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Of course, but the racial divide is something that sticks out in research again and again. And the reverse is also true, non-racial motives can result in racial disparity. 

Agree with both.

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

 All of them have to be addressed. 

I agree with that. But by whom? We are directly responsible for some disparities, and less so on others.

 

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Only focusing on motives and not looking at outcomes is not helpful to solve the issue.

We need to look at all root causes if we want to solve anything. Racism is just one of them, and IMO it's not primary, though it may become so. It certainly was in the past.

Edited June 24, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

12 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I agree with that. But by whom? We are directly responsible for some disparities, and less so on others.

Society at large. This includes researchers to identify the sources of disparities and potentially proposing solutions, lawmakers trying to address them and folks voting those folks in that intend to make the right changes. If we vote in folks that intensify the war on drugs and have racial biases, chances are that segregation will continue further, for example. 

15 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It certainly was in the past.

That is a key element. Now many policies designed in the past may be based on bad and/or racist information. And those need to be reformed.

[J.C.MacSwell]

22 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Society at large. This includes researchers to identify the sources of disparities and potentially proposing solutions, lawmakers trying to address them and folks voting those folks in that intend to make the right changes. If we vote in folks that intensify the war on drugs and have racial biases, chances are that segregation will continue further, for example. 

That is a key element. Now many policies designed in the past may be based on bad and/or racist information. And those need to be reformed.

As in government (as Americans say "we the people") mandated solutions, or government to enforce fair laws (racially blind except where egregious inequity exists) plus hopefully everyone? 

Edited June 24, 2020 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

As in government (as Americans say "we the people") mandated solutions, or government to enforce fair (racially blind except where egregiously inequitable) laws plus hopefully everyone? 

Not sure what you mean precisely, but the first step in my mind is to revise policies that result in racially divergent outcomes. I doubt that we can get to a level where everyone is truly raceblind and I see little value in pretending that the society is. One important reason for the push for reforms is that traditionally racial inequalities were equated with qualities of the race itself (there is a shift from the purely racial argument to a cultural one, but it amounts to the same thing with different words). With mounting evidence, there is now more scrutiny on policies, laws and their interaction with day-to-day decisions and how those may create segregation and racial inequality.

This may range from how schools are funded to criminal justice, law enforcement and so on. There is, however, also a strong pushback from certain circles which often feels like being borne of a desire to deny systematic inequalities (and thereby putting the burden back on minorities again).

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

disparities being statistically significant. Not enough to suspect that whites may be inherently more likely to commit crimes. 

As that’s not a claim I made, I feel no need to defend it. 

[MigL]

Just to be fair, INow, what you say above is certainly true, and I agree with it.

What you said earlier
"Blacks make up only 13% of the population, yet they are 25% of police killings, and worse still comprise 38% of those in prison, and  all despite committing crimes at the same (or lower!) rate as their white peers.

is not necessarily true.
It relies on the assumption that a specific percentage of any group will commit crimes, and therefore the percentage of that group in the general population should be reflected by incarceration rates. One might as well ask why women, who make up slightly more than 50% of American society are not incarcerated more ( they are at about 10% incarceration ).

I don't want to imply that Black Americans commit more crime, because quite frankly, I don't know ( crime statistics are also skewed by the system against blacks ); But you also cannot say they commit an equal, lesser, orgreater percentage than their white peers.

Edited June 25, 2020 by MigL

[iNow]

For at least some crimes, we do have that data and I’ve shared some of it here

Edited June 25, 2020 by iNow

[MigL]

And that very same data that you've shared is skewed by the system currently in place.
I notice you cite traffic stops and drug possession, where Black Americans are way over represented.
And you are right, they certainly are targeted more and receive stiffer penalties for simple possession.

But what about more serious crimes, like shootings ? One could easily blame it on peer pressure ( gangs ) of growing up ( 72 % of the time ) fatherless, with a mother who has to work two jobs to make ends meet, living in a depressed neighborhood, with no future. But that doesn't make black on black violence any less of a crime
( although I've never heard of a black mass murderer )

Edited June 25, 2020 by MigL

[iNow]

The fact that you mention black on black violence at all is itself a problem.

Violence tends to be more common within neighborhoods and neighborhoods tend to group like ethnicities together. That’s the only explanation needed. Proximity.

That means white on white crime is also more common than white in black crime or vice versa. It means Asian on Asian crime is also more common than Asian on white crime or Asian on black crime, etc. 

Its a function of proximity, not a function of ethnicity. 

And yet every time we speak of the disparate experience within the US “justice” system of our black neighbors and family, otherwise well intentioned people like yourself put forth the old canard of black on black crime. 

Ask yourself, how come nobody ever speaks of white on white crime or Asian on Asian crime even though those are also more common for the same proximity reasons cited above?

It’s almost certainly because the black on black crime idea is yet another distraction that we’ve simply become desensitized to, and it’s a tangent which keeps us from focusing upon and solving the real problems at play within the system itself. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by iNow

[MigL]

You will kindly notice that I stated some of the more obvious/simplistic causes of black violence in my post.
And quite a few of those are due to/caused by systemic racism.

But those are circumstances, and don't change the definition of 'crime'.

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

You will kindly notice that I stated some of the more obvious/simplistic causes of black violence in my post.
And quite a few of those are due to/caused by systemic racism.

But those are circumstances, and don't change the definition of 'crime'.

But that's the whole point, the system determines what a crime is. 

In victorian Britain many of the crimes the system chose, was biased against the poor; and before you jump on this J.C. America had a different system to perpetuate. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by dimreepr